First, you have a lot going on – MySunday7, media analyst, the new book Smarter About Sports: My Life Navigating Athletes, Agents, Media, and the Business , NIL work, teaching….how are you juggling it all and what projects do you want everyone to be most aware of?
I’ve been teaching law full-time for the last 12 years – now my current project I want to work on is writing a sports law textbook. A real textbook weaving in my case law experience – that’s a concurrent project I have now.
That jives with the book – it covers the long, winding road through my career – the stops along the way and the lessons learned and gleaned – how to negotiate and operate through the sports business world.
I looked at my post-Packers work and saw this as chapter three of my life- how to give back. I know I won’t cure cancer, but I can do something and give back some knowledge and perspective. I’ve done podcasts, newsletters, articles, media appearances – the book gives an inside look at what really goes on inside sports.
Speaking of getting smarter about books – what did you learn – or what jumped out at you most – as you put pen to paper to write the book?
I get asked a lot “What section of life was most rewarding – the player’s side or team side?” The real answer for me is this time – now. What people really want is not a job that pays a lot – they want autonomy. I have lots of that now. I have the ability now to guard my time well – I have time for my family and for fitness and to pick and choose my opportunities. I find that fulfilling.
Who helped shape your approach to your work and the book?
Media and analysts usually have limited experience – I wanted to write about the real unfiltered, unvarnished look at sports business.
I tell students you have to be you – that will be born out by others. I was always low-key – I try not to react immediately to things and let things sit first before reacting.
I could never be a screamer and a yeller – but I looked forward to negotiating with those types. After a while they’d run out of steam – I just had to wait them out and be patient.
I worked for David Falk – he was a tough negotiator – he was relentless. I learned how he used leverage and tried to fit my style to that – though I was never as relentless as he was. I also worked with long-time agent Eugene Parker – he managed Deion Sanders, Curtis Martin, Rod Woodson…. he was more measured and reasoned. He understood how to gain leverage for players and I learned a lot from him. He passed at a young age – I told his wife how he influenced me at his funeral. When I consulted later with Gary Vaynerchuk, we built a sports practice that included Eugene’s son.
What prompted the writing of the book?
People were always asking me when I’d write a book. I was writing columns for Sports Illustrated, working for ESPN and teaching – I had no time to write a 100,000 word book! But at some point resistance is overtaken by the urge to do it.
In 2023 I realized I had to do it – I had to get it all out of my head.
When I was on vacation with my family in California I woke up early one morning and started writing. It just flowed out of me. I hired a guy to help with the proposal and he kept asking me how I felt when I was negotiating with players and teams and when I walked into ESPN for the first time with no experience.
I never thought about that – I had learned to power through things. I never thought “Oh God, I’m negotiating with Mike Jordan, Brett Favre or Reggie White!” I just never thought about it.
Why – most people would have either been in their heads or been intentional about steeling themselves to it all?
I just always had the ongoing feeling of going on tot he next thing, for good or bad. I tell students that the past is history and the future is a mystery. Be where you are. I am always interested in the post-game interviews with players when they are asked about having just done this or that, and the athletes usually look confused. Like, “Ok…” I’m my own version of this. That is in the book – be in the moment you’re in. Being an agent and working for a team – it’s always frenetic.
You presided over a big quarterback transition in GB – from Favre to Rodgers – how intentional were you in finding your future quarterback while you had your current one in hand. How did you broach that with Brett?
I was in charge of contracts – I didn’t have any input on board rankings – that wasn’t my lane. I responded to what the GM asked me to do.
In Green Bay, way before we drafted Aaron, we drafted quarterbacks later in the draft. One was a client – Matt Hasselback. But we’d trade them later because there was no way they’d play behind Brett.
In 2005, we said “Oh, ok”. Now we took a first round quarterback and you knew he’d have to play. It was completely opportunistic – all the players we had ranked in the first round were gone. There was a long, heated moment on whether to draft someone with a second-round grade in a position of need or trust the board and take the top-rated player.
I talk about this in the book too. Brett called me after the pick – it was a momentary disruption, but we did it. We endured a lot of the boos from fans and the low grades from draft analysts. For three years we had to manage not just that, but the quarterback room. We had California Cool in Aaron and Country Brett – those two would normally never have been in a room together. We had to manage it. If you’re Brett, it’s no fun sitting next to a guy who’s there to take your job, and if you’re Aaron it’s not fun wondering if you’d ever get a chance to play. I talk about this a lot in the book – you have to manage the insecurities of players.
How do you shield or navigate players in team negotiations when teams often have to go over negative aspects of the player in order to negotiate, but want to still retain the player?
A couple of times I had to negotiate with players who didn’t have an agent. I thought that was cool at first, but it’s not as good as some think. You’re dealing with raw emotions and human self-worth. It was a troubling experience – you really saw the value of an agent as a buffer between the team and player. I never wanted to do that again.
Negotiations are tough. You want to be professional and tactful while protecting your side’s interests. On the player side it’s easier – your goal is just to maximize your player’s value. On the team side if you add one clause – anything different – then every other player wants that too. If you respond to holdouts with a new contract, well that creates a line at your door of other players.
As an agent-turned-VP, how was that agent experience most helpful to you now as a team employee and how rewarding was that knowing they must have had great respect for your work/approach as an agent?
Ron Wolf called me out of the blue. I was negotiating with them and they liked my approach. I was thinking “Green Bay?” I had to look up where they were on a map and discussed it with my wife. They wanted to get more agent-friendly and figured, what better way then to hire an agent? But my agent experience was invaluable – I was able to cut through a lot of the BS – I knew what they wanted and what they would say.
You helped launch the NFL’s expansion into Europe. Many fans don’t love the overseas games and games across multiple platforms now. How does the NFL marry the desire for expansion and revenue with fan interest and is it going to far too fast?
It was a different situation with the World League. They cheered at the wring times, there was never enough food, the beds were too short, they ruined the uniforms every time they washed them and I had to smuggle in the uniforms through customs! I talk about those experiences in the book.
I don’t think they’ll ever place a team in Europe – these are more one-offs to help market the sport overseas. It’s easier now I think since the team we started in Barcelona. They all thought American football was weird then.
What excites you most about the future of the league?
We always underestimate the appetite for the NFL. Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. There’s no evidence of people getting tired of it.
The concussion phase, Colin Kaepernik…the NFL moves past it all. I guess the one thing to be wary of across all sports is the proliferation of gambling – could a scandal rock the sport? But that’s the case for all sports.
As an educator, what is it that is most important for those entering the sports business world to understand and appreciate? What should they be most aware – and wary – of?
I get asked a lot if people can pick my brain on this. I wish there was an easy answer to tell everyone. I guess my response is a generic one – “How are you different?” As an agent, when a player asks why they should sign with you, you better have a good answer. It can’t just be that you are smart and went to a good school. You better have a secret sauce.
If you apply for a job in sports a resume and cover letter aren’t enough. If you’re interested in salary caps, write about it. That’s how you stand out. When I hired a research assistant for school, I ask for writing samples. You have to serve what’s needed.
When I hired a salary cap assistant in Green Bay I hired a woman who didn’t know a football from a basketball. She was a data analyst for a trucking company. But she knew how to work with and analyze data. Your job is to take things off of your boss’ plate. They don’t care about your sports radio take. That’s what I tell my students. This isn’t a sports radio class – this is a deep dive into the business of sports.