First, can you let me know what you’ve been doing since your time in the NFL?
Well, I’m retired now. In’ ’89 I hurt my knee in training camp and I couldn’t come back from it. I anticipated catching on with another team after the Steelers released me but that didn’t work out, so I walked away from the game.
After that I took it easy. I was young and financially comfortable. I just took it easy and golfed, traveled, and spent time with friends and family. In my late 30’s I had a son, so I got to be a stay-at-home dad for the first eight years or so. I really enjoyed that – I was able to nurture that relationship with my son.
I also got into real estate – with rental properties. I still own the properties – back then it was a new business to me so I tried to manage that – the painting, dealing with all of those people. It can be crazy though – I’m considering getting out of it now.
I also got involved with working with youth in alternative high schools for five years. I was helping kids from broken homes – kids with learning and behavioral problems. I enjoyed being a mentor to them as well.
Was the post-NFL adjustment difficult?
It wasn’t a struggle, but it was a disappointment. I felt I was still capable of playing and didn’t understand why I couldn’t catch on with another team.
From high school to the pros, you’re around people you form relationships with and have fun with. I was an only child so that was always my family. You go from 52 guys you travel with, shower with, eat with to being by yourself. You’re no longer part of the game. That is an internal adjustment.
Were you upset with the Steelers or the game itself for what happened?
I wasn’t upset at the game. I guess I was a bit resentful with the team. They made a business decision based on money though to not pay me. I needed surgery, and at that time if you were placed on IR before the season started they still had to pay you, and I think they wanted to avoid doing that. They weren’t sure about me – my age and injury I guess – whether it would be worth doing for them.
I realized though after I retired how badly my body was beaten up. I had back, knee, hip, elbow, feet problems…everything. So it was a blessing in disguise. I had five arthroscopic surgeries while I played and had a hip replacement and elbow work after I retired. But that’s the price you pay for playing at that level.
So, stepping back – you were drafted in the first round by the Steelers but opted to play for the CFL. Why was that?
I never anticipated being a first round draft pick. Oklahoma was a football machine school though.
Jerry Argovitz was my agent – he represented a number of first round picks then. Coming out of college I didn’t know what was going on – you take the advice of your agent. He explained to me that there were some hiccups in the negotiations with the Steelers and that there may be other opportunities for me. I got a proposal from Montreal that was for two years and offered me as much as the Steelers did over four years.
I grew up in the military and spent my life overseas mostly until high school. Football was a way to keep me occupied in school – I didn’t think I’d be a professional football player. I also did track, baseball, wrestled.. I went to a junior college first when Oklahoma came and asked me to transfer there. We won a national championship at my junior college so they came and had interest in me. The starter in Oklahoma then quit when I got there so I was given the starting job right away. I went from playing in front of 1,200 people to playing in front of 50,000.
So you weren’t really invested in the NFL versus the CFL?
We only had one tv channel overseas – I didn’t watch the NFL or know about the Steelers really.
The Canadian season started a month before the NFL’s and Montreal had a rich owner and he was trying to change the team. He was signing a bunch of NFL players like Vince Ferragamo and Billy White Shoes Johnson. It was an honor to be drafted but when they flew me up there and showed me the numbers, I had a week to make the decision. I watched them practice and spoke to the guys there and decided to sign. I was 20 years old then.
How did the Steelers react to that?
They were disappointed but I didn’t know anyone there – I didn’t know them. The Montreal contract was also guaranteed – and they signed my teammate from Oklahoma too – David Ogletree. We didn’t have a lot of team success in Montreal despite all those signings but it was a great experience. Montreal was a great city.
After my first year there Art Rooney reached out to me and we chatted for a while. He said they still were interested in me. They still held my rights and knew it was just a two-year contract in Montreal. He wanted me to know they still wanted me there.
Did you know the Steelers had interest in you prior to the draft?
We played in the Orange Bowl and then I played in the Senior Bowl. I had a lot of exposure. They did send a scout to work me out – Bill Nunn. He and I developed a friendship and he actually came up to Montreal to visit with me when I played there. He and I got along great.
Did you get any grief – good natured or otherwise – when you came back to the Steelers?
No – no grief. Bradshaw had something negative to say about me when I signed with Montreal – something about me being afraid of the competition in the NFL. But people knew it was a business decision. I just think they were surprised – I was one of the first first-round picks to play for someone besides the NFL. There weren’t many choices then.
But I did well in camp . I competed against the big boys and blended in well and competed.
Anyone help mentor you, being new to the team and city?
No -that didn’t happen. The offensive linemen – Ilkin, Wolfley, Webster – they tried harder to make me look bad, but that didn’t work. Then they figured I was for real – I held my ground.
The defensive line – the guys were young then. Dunn was the only seasoned vet – and Goodman. I played at Oklahoma with Goodman – we weren’t close friends but having him there helped some too.
Who were some of the guys you faced that were tough matchups for you?
In practice – Pete Rostosky. I called him “Powerful Pete”. He was such a hard worker. And Anthony Munoz was a tough guy to go up against in games. Joe DeLamielleure on the Browns was good too. Unlike guys today, we didn’t really have friendships with the guys on other teams. I didn’t know most of their names. I’d study them on film and play against them, but they were numbers to me.
Supposedly you were a bit of a prankster during your time in Pittsburgh – any fun memories to share?
It was a lot of fun but it was just smaller things -Vaseline in shoes, powder in helmets, Icy Hot in jock straps – that kind of thing. Guys got made but they never knew who it was.
Keith Willis and I were roommates for four of the six years I was there. One of the things I remember was how we would tease Terry Long. We’d call him Sybil because one week he was really nice to you and the next week he wouldn’t say a word to you, God rest his soul.
And when Chuck Noll walked into the locker room, all the guys just stopped. Keith and I weren’t as intimidated by that though – we were just having fun and I think he appreciated that. He didn’t play favorites – but he wasn’t the badass people thought he was. He was just quiet and wanted you to do your job.
Ever talk to Ken Anderson about the facemask incident?
I remember after it happened and going to see Pete Rozelle. The whole thing was an accident – I just reached out and grabbed his facemask as he was moving to the outside. But I got death threats from Bengals fans after that. I never got the opportunity to meet him though.
Any thoughts on the way the game has changed today?
It’s incredible how much money these guys make now. $15 million for doing the same job I did – and some of those guys think about turning that money down!
Last thoughts for fans?
I’m just enjoying my health – I’m working out every day and eating healthy. Staying in shape.
I was fortunate to be coached by Chuck Noll, Jon Kolb, and Joe Greene when he first started coaching. Joe – he was Mean Joe when he first started coaching. He tried to coach like he played – but we weren’t Mean Joe! He was a hardass for those first couple of years, but I see him now and we get along well. He is a great guy.
It was all really a fortunate time in my life.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
