First off – what have you been up to since playing football?
Ironically, when I was released by the Steelers in 1991, I went back to Michigan State and asked the coaches if they knew of any jobs, and they told me about a sales assistant job in Detroit for a steel manufacturer. So I went from Pittsburgh to working in the steel industry in Detroit.
I started off as a sales trainee and moved around from Detroit, Chicago, Grand Rapids….I’ve been in Houston now for a while and in the steeler industry for 36 years.
Was the adjustment difficult after football?
Absolutely. I had a great college career playing with great players like Andre Rison, Percy Snow, Dixon Edwards, Tony Mandarich… then you’re cut and no one is talking about you any more. It’s a big adjustment. No one is calling you now. I was fortunate to get two season in the World Football League – I played in Montreal.
Training camps were tough – my body was deteriorating already at 25. Two-a-days and physical practices – I could tell my body was giving out. Then I got a pinched nerve and I knew I couldn’t play much longer.
What made you decide to sign with the Steelers as a free agent after Seattle?
I had two offers in free agency – Detroit and Pittsburgh. I chose Pittbsurgh because my college coach was George Perles and I thought he may have some insight into the team. They also offered a little more of a signing bonus and salary.
Did Perles have any insight to share?
You know, not really. He liked to keep those things separate. But the Michigan State and Steelers offenses were similar – three yards and a cloud of dust!
Did any of the Steelers players help show you the ropes? How so?
Tom Ricketts – he was nice to me. Tunch Ilkin was a real gentleman. John Jackson, Justin Strelczyk, Dermontti Dawson – all of them were great guys. They all talked to me like I had been there for 10 years.
That was Chuck Noll’s last year. Doug Marrone was my roommate too in camp – he’s still coaching now in the NFL.
How did Pittsburgh compare with your Seattle experience?
Pittsburgh was more physical. That was Chuck Noll’s last season. There were more one-on-one drills – and the Oklahoma Drills. They were more physical – no one took it easy in practice.
What was the biggest adjustment for you there?
I tell people, the biggest adjustment is from high school to college. I was big compared to the kids in high school. In college though I was just an average sized guy. From college to the NFL, the guys are about the same size, it’s the speed of the game that’s different. But that slows down for you after a while.
The other adjustment in the NFL is the amount of reps you get. NFL practices were an 1:30 versus 2:30 in college. The physicality wasn’t different though. I went up against guys like Cortez Kennedy and Russell Maryland in college – they don’t get more physical than that!
Were there moments in camp that stand out to you most?
I remember the scrimmages we had versus the Redskins. They had some big guys on the defensive line like Dexter Manley. Matt Millen was still playing then too. But I was really in awe of the Hogs – I watched the Redskins linemen in college. I’d watch them do their reps then when they were done they’d all take off their helmets and put on baseball caps.
But I did well in the scrimmage. They had one guy – Marcus Koch – he was 6’7″ – he could reach behind me and hit the quarterback – he had such a big wingspan.
Were there off-field moments that stay with you at all?
I was there in the heart of training camp. Tunch did take all of the linemen out for beers before camp started – he organized the offensive line party. He was the leader of the linemen then. But they wee all cordial guys – there weren’t any jerks. A lot of good players and people – Carlton Haselrig, Terry Long, Dermontti Dawson, Justin Strelczyk, Tunch, John Jackson…
What were the coaches telling you then?
Ron Blackledge was the offensive line coach and he told me to just keep doing what I was doing and I’d make the team. But in that Redskins scrimmage I pinched a nerve in my neck – I had no use of my right arm then. Back then teams didn’t believe in chiropractors. After that I should have gotten medical attention but I just kept playing. I was a totally different player after that. That was probably my demise then.
They cut me after that – before the cut-down day. They could see I was playing with one arm. Tom Donahoe gave me the standard speech – I showed promise but they only have some many spots on the team… blah blah blah.
I think getting cut was probably the best thing that happened to me. I saw too many guys that played into their late 20’s and it’s harder to transition to a new career then. A number of guys told me they wished they were cut sooner – that transition is tough. You have to have a strong mindset to go through it – it breaks a lot of people.
Did you ever have a desire to go into coaching?
It’s funny you ask that. I remember when I was cut – I thought I’d love to coach. But it didn’t pay anything back then. An assistant coach at Michigan State only made $40,000. The Defensive Coordinator only made $65,000 – George Perles was the Head Coach and he only made $120,000! If I had known then what would happen to the salaries if you stuck it out… But I got married young and had a baby on the way. I needed a job. Doug Marrone told me that he only made peanuts when he first started – it took a couple of years before he made any real money.
What advice would you give guys trying to make it today as a lower-round pick?
I talk about it a lot now. Kids in college today with NIL money – there’s no incentive to get out of college! But football doesn’t last forever -that’s what I tell people. You have to plan for your future. Bruce Allen – George Allen’s son – he was my agent, and he gave me the greatest advice. He said that “It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon.” And I’ve followed that ever since.