First, can you talk a bit about what you got involved with after football?
Well, I went back to school and got my Masters from Pitt and taught for four years. After that I went back to grad school at Duquesne and got a degree in counseling and ended up being a high school guidance counselor in Pittsburgh for 30-plus years.
Now, I’m recovering from a heart attack I had a while ago and walking around the house every day to get back in shape!
Was the post-NFL adjustment difficult?
It wasn’t that hard. I was in the ROTC and Mr. Rooney got me a deferment until after the season. I had offers from other teams when I got back – it would have been probably triple what I was making as a teacher. Los Angeles made me an offer – that’s when Gilman and Noll were coaching there. The Dallas Texans did too – the Hunt family owned the team then. But I had settled into the idea of teaching – I got married and had a family so I stayed with that.
Remember, football back then was not as romanticized or popular like it is today. It wasn’t glamourous. Back then the players all had to work on the offseason. Even some of the coaches did.
How did the deferment happen?
Mr. Rooney was friends with Congressman Fulton. He’s the one that owned the Fulton pier – the one out there by the parkway – where the bathtub area is that always flooded. Well, Mr. Rooney knew everybody and talked to Fulton about getting my induction delayed to the end of the season and he arranged that.
How did you end up with the Steelers?
I played high school football in Oakland – at Schenley then played at Pitt. I was invited to two All-Star games – the East-West game and Senior Bowl. The East-West game conflicted with the Sugar Bowl but I played in the Senior Bowl.
People said I was too small though. I only weighed around 220 pounds and back then you played both ways – I played center and outside linebacker. I wasn’t drafted, but ended up signing with Pittsburgh as a free agent.
Why Pittsburgh?
I talked to Fran Fogerty – their business guy. I just decided to stay closer to home. I went to their office on Grant Street across from the U.S. Steel building – it was a very small office I remember – and signed the contract.
I made the team – back then they only had 33 players on each team so at first I was on the taxi squad. It’s funny – the taxi squad actually got its name because it started with Paul Brown in Cleveland – the team owner owned a taxi company and had guys drive taxis for him – that’s how the taxi squad name got started.
Who helped you when you got there – and how?
Dale Dodrill – he was an All-Pro linebacker. The first time we scrimmaged for some reason he pulled me aside and asked if he could give me some advice. It was like Moses coming down from the mountaintop! He was very helpful. I’m not sure if he just knew us from Oakland – the Pitt players ran into the Steelers guys sometimes there.
Ernie Stautner treated me like a little brother. They were all really very nice to me.
How did they help?
Dale noticed something in my stance immediately. In college we were predicated on the run, so I’d put a lot of weight forward to get off the mark fast. But in the pros you need better balance for when you pass block. Dodrill noticed that right away and told me that a good defensive lineman would throw me to the ground easily by just throwing my weight forward. That was a simple thing I hadn’t known before.
Who were some of the toughest matchups you faced then?
I may have been the smallest offensive lineman in football. One guy was Art Donovan. He was a monster, He was huge and a good athlete – he would give you lots of trouble.
Bill George – the linebacker for the Bears – he gave me a concussion one game in the first quarter. I ended up playing the whole game. It was a Saturday night game and when I woke up the next day it was noon. I walked in a daze the whole game but no one knew.
Who were you close to with the Steelers and Pitt?
I was a rookie and guys didn’t pay that much attention to you then. I just went to work every day. At Pitt we were like a band of brothers. In fact when I had my heart attack I heard from guys I knew 65 years ago when word got around. It was a special thing.
The guys I was closest with at Pitt were John Paluck who later on played for the Redskins. He was an interesting guy. Eric Stowe – he was an All-New Jersey football player and wrestler – pre-med guy. And Hal Hunter who was the co-captain with me at Pitt and was from Canonsburg. He ended up coaching some with the Steelers, 49ers, Indianapolis and other teams.
In Pittsburgh Jack Butler was a real gentleman and a very accomplished player. Ted Marchibroda was the same way. And Bill McPeak was the captain and he treated me right. All just really outstanding men that I looked up too. Good Christian men.
Do you watch football at all today?
I do. I’d get killed if I played today! These guys are so much stronger and faster than we were. They are so talented – it’s unbelievable.
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