First, can you let readers know what you’ve been doing with yourself since your tie in the NFL? 

I’ve been out of the game and was in the car business for twenty years. I was a GM of a car dealership and then life happened. I had a couple of kids, a son who is sixteen and plays football at  Southlake Carroll here in Texas, and a daughter who is a freshman at the University of Oklahoma and is on the rowing team. So, I switched gears. Football and sports can be very demanding. I’m now currently employed at a lumber company in Grand Rapids. I’m the account manager here in Saginaw, TX. I’m enjoying spending time with my children.

How did you prepare for life after the NFL? 

My journey was as a free agent… I had a torn ACL my senior year in college. And teams didn’t realize that then but it slowed down my play for my final few games in college. I think that’s the reason why I was undrafted. I knew I potentially had a limited career from day one, so I used the NFL –  “my helmet” – to position my life after football. My rookie year in Pittsburgh I worked as an intern at Merrill Lynch . When I went to Dallas I got started in the car business. I prepared myself for that day. When you’re not a high draft pick, you know you potentially have a limited career.

Did you take advantage of any NFL programs?

My rookie year, the NFL came in and talked to us about different programs. A lot players that I was talking to then said they didn’t want to do those programs, that they wanted to keep their edge and not have a fallback position. They felt that to be very good, you couldn’t have that backup plan. It’s hard to get to adjusted. My peers in the work world got the jump on me because we played for years in the NFL first. So it was a reality check – you have to work very hard to succeed.

You signed on with Pittsburgh as an undrafted free agent in 2003. Why Pittsburgh?

My agent, Ralph Cindrich, was based in Pittsburgh, and as soon as the draft was over I got four to five calls from teams that were all wanting me to sign with them. My thought was, “why didn’t you call me an hour ago and draft me?” I knew they were all trying to entice me to play and I was processing it all. The agent said Pittsburgh has some veteran linebackers, like David Little, and he thought that would give me an opportunity to have an impact as a rookie because some might leave. You don’t get to do research on the teams. You have 30-40 minutes to make a decision. So I left it to the agent’s expertise. I was also a Pittsburgh fan even though I lived in Dallas, so when I had a chance to play in Pittsburgh it was exciting. I even played against Joe Green’s son when I played football in high school in Dallas.

How did those other linebackers and how much did they help you?

It was all very competitive. I was not a big threat to a lot of the other linebackers. The were mostly veterans, and guys like Chad Brown and Greg Kirkland were second round picks. They were all very helpful, it was just a matter of numbers.

I remember in my rookie year when Jerry Olsavsky was hurt against Cleveland. Chad Brown and I had competed in practice and I knew all the positions. I studied hard because I knew I had to know everything in order to just get a spot on the team. I got a call from the coach while I was on the sidelines and he asked me if I knew what was doing – if I knew I could play and know what was going on. I said yes. I thought I played well. I actually broke Vinny Testerverde’s collar bone in that game. I thought I had a shot.

Then the bye week came – I even read Chad’s interview with you – and I saw what happened. Bill Cower came to me and said since Chad’s a second rounder he’s going to alternate the two of us at the position. Our production was equal, but next week, Cowher said that Chad was a second round pick and we have to give him a shot. Chad took advantage of this opportunity and did very well.

How difficult was the defense to lean for you?

I was a rushed defensive end in college. I didn’t really understand the 3-4 at first. We didn’t blitz as much as they do now, because they had good enough guys to apply pressure on the quarterback without having to blitz. So it was a bit easier then.

It was Cowher’s second season as head coach. Could you see is imprint forming on the team?

Coming from Oklahoma with Barry Switzer as coach, they had an established coach and system there. Bill Cower was former player, and you can tell he was a player’s coach. You knew where you stood with him, and I appreciated that. He had a lot of energy and he kept everyone loose. That made you better. Guys like Kevin Greene and Rod Woodson were established guys and you had other guys who were just finding their way. They kept their draft choices.

Who were the leaders on that team then, and how did they do so?

Rod Woodson, you could tell he was a pro’s pro. The way he approached it. He and Carnell Lake, they all ran extra sprints after practice. The rookies would look over and realized they needed to do it too. They were leadership qualities we all saw. Kevin Greene also ran sprints after practice, he did the same thing. Looking at the other veteran players, they were leading by example, and as a rookie, we learned that everyone goes to practice and they go home to family after. It wasn’t like college where you went to the dorms, so you had to make the most of what was happening then and make the most of every practice.

How did humor play a part?

Guys would mess with us as rookies. We had a rookie night where the veterans would take the rookies out. Chad and I were the only rookie linebackers that year. Greg Lloyd said that they would take care of the limos for us. We walked outside and saw three limos pull up, but there were only seven linebackers. I told him we didn’t need seven – and he said he and Kevin would take one, and we’d take our own as well.  I asked him who was going to pay for all this, and he said you are. So I sent one home! The vets were trying to take advantage of us. When we got to the restaurant, Greg Lloyd ordered five entrees. They were gouging us!

What happened in the 1994 season?

I came back to training camp in 1994. The way the league was set up, there was a lot of turnover due to the salary cap. If you were a starter, you were safe. Otherwise, you were a guy they could replace. I had a hamstring issue in camp. I knew I needed to be healthy, but I missed a preseason game. GM Tom Donohoe came up to me and said he was pulling for me, but I needed to be healthy. They ended up going with Eddie Robinson instead of me, I think in part because Chad always felt that I was competing with him and I think they wanted him to feel comfortable. I had dinner with Chad last week – he’s a great friend. I just think they wanted him to feel relaxed at the position.

How has the game changed since you played, from your perspective?

The game has really changed – I’m closer now to it then I was before due to my son playing. I see the way the guys are now and in the spread offense the guys are so much faster. I think high school is ruining college, and college is ruining the pros. Lots of guys now are out of position in the pros due to the spread offense that’s happening in high school. You need to be smaller and faster in high school and college, you play in a different style, then that translates differently when you get to college and the NFL. A 200-pound safety in high school or college doesn’t have to face a fullback or lineman because of the spread offense, as an example, but they will in the NFL, and their body type doesn’t always fit the role that the NFL wants them to play. Here in Texas, we have spread-happy coaches. Everyone loves points now, it’s like playing in the CFL.

What advice would you give young players today? 

You need to take care of your body. Lots of times athletes think we are invincible, but one injury causes another. You need to take care of your body, and respect the game and the work that goes into it.

For life after football, communication skills are key. With text messages and smartphones, kids don’t talk anymore. But they have to be mindful of communication in the real world. In the business world there are face-to-face meetings, and just like in football, you have to work at those skills. Young people lose sight of that, they want it now and fast. But you can’t lose sight of the work and sacrifice it takes. You have to keep marching on, and never lose the passion and desire to do the little things.

I look back at my career and I was fortunate – I counted once and realized I played with 13 Hall of Famers. Those guys put in the work, young people need to do the same thing.

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