First, can you let me know what you have been involved in since your time in football?
Well, I got out of football after playing for two years. I was going half-time to UCLA’s graduate business school – after three years I got my degree.
I worked for a big conglomerate – TransAmerica – for two years then had the good fortune to fall into a venture capital partnership in San Francisco. I always wanted to get into the start-up scene. I worked there for six-to-seven years – a company called Continental Capital.
Then I began to do some co-investments with a Middle Eastern Group. I joined them and packed up all our furniture and moved my family to Beirut – this was during the 15-year civil war. It was fascinating living the ex-pat life, but we had to retreat when things got too hot. We moved to their office in Dusseldorf, then to London. Then in the 80’s we moved back to the states.
Was it hard leaving football?
I think it was harder for guys who spent more time in the league. I was 22 when I left – I had my curiosity filled. It paid my way through business school but it was never my career dream to play in the NFL long-term. It was a different world than the one we’re in today. Back then it was a six-month gig – guys worked other jobs – drove trucks and sold insurance in the offseason.
How did you find out you were drafted by Pittsburgh?
My wife jokes I was the Steelers’ first choice in 1963 because I was drafted in the eight round and they traded their first seven picks that season to Chicago.
The night of the draft I got a call. The whole time leading up to the draft the team that was tracking me was the Cowboys – I got a letter from them every week. I was in my fraternity house when I got a call from Will Walls, congratulating me for being drafted. He never mentioned the team and I just thought it was the Cowboys who drafted me. I didn’t find out until later that night that it was Pittsburgh!
Were you disappointed?
The first thing I thought was “Am I going to do this thing?” I wouldn’t have been drafted if I played today. I never discussed my future with Pittsburgh – I just wanted to take the challenge. I was happy to go.
What happened after that?
Well, I graduated in December of ’61 and camp didn’t start until the following June. I had the opportunity to sail around the world on a merchant ship – really around Asia.
Well, I was sitting in a waterfront bar in Saigon reading the Stars & Stripes. I read then that Big Daddy Lipscomb had died from an overdose. It was a cynical thought I know, but I thought that it could help me make the team.
They drafted me to take over for Ernie Stautner at right defensive end. Lipscomb was the inside tackle. Ernie had to un-retire after that.
Anyone help you adjust to the NFL?
Ernie helped me. He showed interest in me. They were all damn nice. Lou Michaels was spooky but nice too.
Spooky? How so?
Well, we all went out for our rookie night at a bar in West Virginia – when the vets wanted to get the rookies drunk and get sick. We were shooting pool and drinking Black Label when Lou pointed to me and asked me to do something – to take a drink. But he never said my name. I said that I don’t do anything for someone who doesn’t say my name. Well, he broke the pool stuck in half and charged at me – they had to hold him back. Lou was a nice guy but you didn’t always know with him.
Anyone else help?
Buster Ramsey was the defensive coordinator and we got along real well. It was mostly an older team – not a lot of young guys. Buddy Parker didn’t like rookies – he’s rather have broken down vets than rookies. “Rookies lose you games.” he said.
I roomed with some other guys on the team – we had a duplex on Route 51. Clendon Thomas, Buzz Nutter, Bob Schmidt…we all hung out together.
Any on-field memories stand out to you?
I got my first start in our second exhibition game versus the Lions. Against St. Louis I caused and recovered a fumble, and over that season I sacked Don Meredith and Y.A. Tittle – he and I actually become good friends later on after I retired.
I remember playing the Giants at Yankee Stadium the last game of the year – we needed to win to go to the playoffs. We changed our shoes after every set of downs due to all of the icy patches there. We knew something was funny when we saw the Giants come out in tennis shoes!
John Reger was really helpful too. He was a good guesser – he always knew what play was coming. I started at right defensive end versus Green Bay and John was the outside linebacker. He’d yell “Here it comes – 36E!” to me. I sold out and barreled into the middle of the play. If it was anything but 36E I would have looked like a fool. But he knew…
On – and one story about John. We were playing the Eagles at Franklin Field when he got nailed. He was lying on his back and his legs were twitching. He had swallowed his tongue – he was dying right there on the field. Doc Best ran on the field and jammed a pair of scissors through his teeth and opened his jaw and pulled out his tongue. He saved his life.
I was on the sidelines watching. I said to myself that if John died I was going to walk off the field into the locker room, take a shower, and leave this league. But two weeks later John was out there starting again.
Any other memories stand out?
Brady Keys – we played Cleveland and he made the mistake that game of trying to tackle Jim Brown and ended up in the hospital that week. The following week JFK was assassinated and then Jack Ruby shot Owald that Sunday. Brady came into the locker room that Sunday from the hospital telling us we wouldn’t believe what he had seen – he saw Ruby shoot Oswald on the hospital TV. The NFL still had us play that Sunday – much to Rozelle’s later chagrin.
Two weeks later we played Dallas in Dallas. It was a quiet town – but the stadium was packed.
To show you what a small world it was. I started working with a group on Wall Street – First National City Bank. It turns out they had just bankrolled Brady’s All World Fried Chicken restaurant. Brady and I got on really well.
What happened after that season?
After that season I told the team that next year was going to be my last year in the NFL. I fell out of favor with them after that. They had a deal in place to trade me to the Rams but that fell through. They let me loose after that and Houston of the new football league owned my rights, but they had a deep defensive line so they traded me to Denver. I played four games in Denver but broke my ankle, so after that I went to business school.
Any other memories come to mind, thinking back on it?
My best friends in those days were Andy Russell and Bill Nelsen. We all palled around then and Andy and I stayed close over the years.
I met a lot of those 70’s Steelers players through Andy. Andy loved taking overseas business trips and he’d bring Swann, Blount, Mansfield, and other guys with him and would visit us in London and Beirut. It was a fun time.
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