First, can you let me know what you’ve been doing with yourself since you retired from the NFL?
Well, right now I’m doing some real estate work, like a lot of guys end up doing. That, as well as some logistics investment in things like trucking. I kind of always wanted to do real estate since I retired. I ran for the hills for a while when the recession hit – its an eat what you kill job and there wasn’t much to eat then!
Why both lines of work?
Well, with logistics, I just always wanted multiple sources of income. And even in a recession, if you’re positioned correctly you’ll always have work. No matter what, goods always have to be delivered by someone.
Talking about your initial start in the NFL with Pittsburgh. You were an undrafted free agent. Why choose Pittsburgh as a place to start off with?
It was a perfect situation for me. In college, I was behind a first team All-Conference tight end for my first three years there. The only way I could play and get on the field was to learn how to block and be the second tight end. I did all the dirty work while he got the glamorous, fun stuff! But it allowed me to get to be good as a blocker.
After I wasn’t drafted, I was able to choose the best fit for me – to look at the best situation and fit for my talents. At the time, Pittsburgh was still keeping four tight ends on their roster. That wasn’t the norm – most kept three, but Pittsburgh kept four and carried one less back. That track record and utilization of tight ends is what sold me and worked out to my benefit.
I’ve spoken to some late round pick guys. Is it better sometimes to be an undrafted free agent versus a late round pick sometimes, from your perspective?
Absolutely. I’ve talked to some guys – other tight ends who came out with me that year. They said that I had the better opportunity – that I got to pick my situation. It also should be noted that only works if you have multiple invitations. In my case if had four offers to come to camp. But Pittsburgh was the best situation for me.
Who helped mentor you that rookie year – and how?
Jonathan Hayes helped me a lot. He was an 11-year vet at that point in time. He was a guy who mentored me a lot on and off the field. It was a good time to be there on that team – it was a close-knit, veteran driven team.
All the vets were pretty cool at pulling you aside and talking to you. For off the field stuff, Dwight Stone – Stoney – he showed me around Pittsburgh and taught me what to expect – and what not to expect. He and I are still friends – we live near on another and still joke around like we did in ’94!
Any fun memories of your time in Pittsburgh?
Oh there were so many things.
The funniest thing I remember was in training camp – I’ll never forget it. When you’re an undrafted free agent, you’re at the bottom of the totem pole – beneath the starters, the veteran backups, and the draft picks. The team of course has the most interest in those other guys. So I thought that I had to just go out and kick up some dust and get noticed. I had to give it constant effort and go balls-to-the-wall.
Well, Cowher was a former linebacker, and he always liked to start things off with the first drill – tight ends on linebackers, one-on-one. Pittsburgh always had a notorious group of linebackers and this group was no exception, with Greene, Lloyd, Brown and those guys.
Well, I was out there doing it and holding my own. Blocking was my forte’. Well, we’re doing more drills and I come off the line this time facing Lloyd. Well, you never knew what Lloyd would do in practice. One play he’d be super-human and go a million miles an hour, and then the next play he just would stand there not moving, watching the play. Well, of course I didn’t know that then. So I came off the ball, and my arms were swimming, and I slapped him twice in the head. He didn’t move or anything. He just stood there. Well, I came back to the huddle and ran past him. As I did, he said “Rookie, I’m going to kill you for that!”
Well, I did know who he was. I did my research before camp – I knew he was a badass – a black belt. Well, the next time up I get in my stance and there he is across from me. He’s in some karate stance with his hand pulled back like he’s going to karate chop me. He didn’t, but from then on, especially during the regular season, he and I would be the only ones going full speed at each other.
It’s funny too, because when I’d line up across Kevin Greene, he’d yell at me “Don’t bring that stuff here! I don’t want that stuff on me!”
How was Kevin Greene with you in Pittsburgh?
It’s funny – once the season started, I may have dressed for five games that rookie season.
My primary job was to give the first team defense their look for the upcoming game. That’s when I learned so much from Kevin Greene.
He was so cool. He worked with me and talked to me about anything I did right or wrong. He let me know either way. He talked with me through technique and form. I knew that if there was something I could do to cause him problems, then that would definitely be problematic to a regular guy. He really helped me to refine the art of blocking in the NFL. It’s crazy, and I needed that. Once the season started, the coaches had to focus on Eric Green and Hayes – the starters. They didn’t have that much time for me so that was really big for me.
You left after your rookie season and came back years later. How much changed between your rookie season and when you returned?
It was crazy to leave only to come back so much later. It all came full circle. When I was there the first time we were at Three Rivers – it was like we were trapped in the 70’s!
It was a new facility when I got back there, but honestly, the culture was the same. Bill was still the coach – some other coaches weren’t there but it was the same ownership. It was still a veteran team – that was the way Bill always liked to build his teams.
How has the tight end position changed over the years from your perspective – and do you like those changes?
As I look at the tight end position now, I’m proud of how it’s evolved. It’s become an integral part of the offense now – they can now be gamechangers given the wide open style of offenses in the NFL.
We had Greg Olsen here in Charlotte. Now many are great receivers. But the ones that hold their own as blockers – who work at it -those are the ones that make more of a difference. They are more potent. They can line up on the right side and the team can still run that way – and the tight end is still a threat to catch passes. I enjoy the tight ends that take pride in their blocking, but they have to catch now too.
Lastly, any thoughts on how the NFL itself has changed?
The NFL is going through the change now that it had to go through at some point. I’m sure I’m like a lot of former players when we see the game and say the players are soft – that they never had to do two-a-days like we did. But in truth that doesn’t make them softer or weaker. We have the mentality as former players that they never had to go through the initiations into the game like we did.
In the 70’s and 80’s, once the football season was over we didn’t touch a football until the season started came around again. Now the players are so specialized – they are growing not grooming players. They work at it year-round now.
The kids are so big, fast, and specialized now. They have to put those restraints in to keep them safe. As much as I miss the game I participated in and remember, I think it was a necessary evolution of the game. I just hope it doesn’t become flag football!
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
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