First off, what are you up to now?
I call my retirement a graduation. I still work for the Senior Bowl All Star Game helping to select players for it. I scout half of the Big 10, MAC, Missouri Valley Conference and go to major college games and scout them still – like Texas – Ohio State. I scouted Manning and many of those great OSU players.
It’s fun to re-connect with the NFL and college coaches there – I know a lot of those guys.
What is your role at the combine now?
I like to take care of those young men. I want them to have a great experience there. Me, Zac Canty and Justin Chabot make it all flow. I was anointed as the 40-yard dash guy by legendary scout C.O Brocato. I didn’t want to do it. I was at the Cactus Bowl and popped off there that if they needed help with anything to let me know. I figured I’d help with height/weight measurements – that sort of thing. But a scout said “You said anything!” So they had me run the 40. I just thought “Oh God.” You had to stand in front of everyone – it was a lot of pressure. I said “No.” But then CO called Kevin Colbert who said it would be beneficial for the team – it would give me the chance to meet with the group leaders and get a good sense of the character of the players.
That first year it was on TV – they had to give us microphones! The problem was because it was on TV and they had to break for commercials at certain times they needed to have the kids run in 15 minutes intervals. I had to battle with them because sometimes the players hadn’t warmed up enough yet. That year the first two running backs that ran pulled their hamstrings. The next six decided not to run. When the ninth back ran the scouts all stood up and clapped. It didn’t make for good TV. I had to force them to understand it was about the players not TV.
What happened after that?
The third year they brought in Adam Acone to produce the combine – he was a Pittsburgh guy and he got it. He listened. I became the gatekeeper for the players. I also worked with the group leaders to make sure the tape cut-ups were done., with Adam and the video coordinators to make sure everyone knew who was running and not running, and to let people on the stands know as well. I was communicating those messages to everyone.
What you’d like to see changed about how the combine is run, drills, how NFL teams utilize the experience, etc?
I’d like to see the offensive line just run the 20. That’s the most important time. Linemen never run 40 yards. How many yards do they run when they are blocking in space or pulling. The basic drills though don’t need to change – its important to do everything to keep the data consistent. Some want to use lasers for timing but not everyone uses the same lasers. GPS data – you have to know what the distance was to know understand when a speed was obtained.
Any “Steelers guys” this combine, having worked for team for so many years, any guys just seem like Steelers guys?
Not really. One thing people said was that this group was exceptionally fast – some blamed it on the surface. But the media always need to blame something. When Bam Adebayo just put up 83 in the NBA people said it was against a bad team – he didn’t do it like Kobe. The media always has to write about something.
I do think it’s a great tight end and edge group. The quarterbacks – with NIL many stayed in college.
Know any of the new Steelers coaches – thoughts on them?
I know half of the staff! They are great people – and Mike is a Pittsburgh guy – he knows what Pittsburgh is about. He hired great people. I sent him a congratulatory note when he was hired telling him he needed to take his staff to Jim’s to get chicken parm sandwiches and calzones and go to his dad’s old bar to give them a real feel for Pittsburgh!
Any sense of what you think he’ll be doing there and implementing as a coach?
I’d say let him grow into the role – let him get acclimated and for the coaches to figure out where to live and send their kids to school first! It’s too early for that other stuff yet. People need patience – a quiet mind allows for clarity!
How hard is it to project players ability to adapt to schemes as so many teams like Steelers are very wedded to scheme and packages?
Take for example Caleb Downs at Ohio State. A young scout would watch his tape and say “He doesn’t do a lot.” You have to know what Matt Patricia was doing scheme-wise. If you knew that you’d see he was a key chess piece that covered up a lot of situations for him. You can see his football intelligence when you watch the tape and he’d make big plays too. But a novice scout may not see a lot of that.
Also people talk about small corners being nickels. Maybe – but just because they are small? We see some big nickels and small corners – it depends on the scheme. Do they play zone or man? You have to identify what a player can do first and let the coaches dictate whether he fits the scheme.
I remember when we were scouting Aaron Donald in Pittsburgh. We weren’t sure where to play him because he was small. Dick LeBeau just said “Don’t worry about where we’d play him. If we had him we’d find a way to use him!”
Scouts now say if a lineman is small he’s like Aaron Donald. But no – he was special. there aren’t many Aaron Donalds.
Were there guys you really loved scouting?
The late Marshawn Kneeland – two years ago I gave him a priority grade when many gave him a free agent grade. Jim Nagy saw that and asked if I was sure about it – that he didn’t have much production. That Pro Football Focus didn’t have him rated highly. I told him I didn’t care what they thought – that he was a disruptor and what he was doing allowed someone else on the defense to eat. Nagy later told he was just kidding me and giving me a hard time.
This year Cole Payton – that’s my guy this year. I put a priority invite on him for the Senior Bowl and Drew Fabianich – the new head of the Senior Bowl – he asked if I was sure – if I watched a lot of tape on him. I told him I watched him like I watch Netflix – every Monday! He came off a broken thumb and had a great Senior Bowl. He had just two bad games and those were after coming off the broken thumb. He can run, he’s elusive, he extends plays in the pocket and can really drive the ball downfield. He was a fun player to watch and grade. He’s 6’2″, 230 pounds and ran a 4.56 40.
He’s rising up the draft boards now too – I guess I still got it!
I saw Fernando Mendoza there at the combine when I was timing the quarterbacks. I kidded him – I’m friends with his college coach. I told him he was afraid to run because he was scared of me! All of the quarterbacks were on the phone with their agents asking if they should run a second time. I told them they should make up their own minds. If they weren’t running get out of the way and I’ll work with the receivers!
How did Pittsburgh differ from other teams and function as a scouting department?
I can’t speak for other teams. But I know Mike T., Tom Modrak, Tom Donohoe, Kevin Colbert – they watched a lot of tape. Mike T. more than anyone. We had three scouting coordinators, position coaches, head coach and GM all watching tape and discussing players. Kevin would travel and scout players – not many GMs did that.
Ron Hughes – an old Steelers scout who passed away year ago – said that it’s ok to disagree, just don’t be disagreeable. We never had arguments – just discussions. Kevin and the coaches had the clarity to mediate it all well.
What do you do to unwind beyond football
I still do mentor players – that gives me satisfaction. I also do some public speaking and Zoom bomb some sessions like Oregon holds on recruiting and scouting!
I also like to go to concerts – I like live music. I saw Jason Isbell on the way back from the combine. I also like to write – I have about 110 life lessons I write and send out on Twitter. I may put those into a book some day. I also like to do shadow art and paint. I really just love to talk ab out football and life most though!