First, can you let me know what you got into after football?
I got into real estate development. I tried to buy apartments and renovated them and sold them. It didn’t make me rich but I could live off of it.
Was the post-NFL adjustment difficult?
It was. I used to wake up at night with blood on the wall. I’d hit the wall in my sleep – I’d dream about plays and swing and hit the wall. My wife stopped sleeping with me after that!
It was a little scary. But I’m still walking and breathing. Losing a lot of my short-term memory is my biggest issue now. It’s the only thing I suffer from. I’m told it’s a CTE issue that’s been progressing over time.
Looking back, were you surprised to be drafted by the AFL Chargers in ’64? You were also drafted by the NFL too.
I wasn’t surprised. I was just happy – I was fortunate to go in the 12th round. I told myself once I was drafted that I would tear something up when I got there! San Diego was close to where I grew up – that’s why I chose to play in the AFL instead of the NFL.
Did anyone take you under their wing and show you anything that helped you become an All-Pro player?
They armchaired me a bit – they showed me how to do some things. This and that. Routes to take around the area to get around faster, things like that.
On the field all they had to do was turn me loose. I was hungry and outright ornery. I didn’t want anyone to beat me in anything. I grew up on the streets of Santa Monica and back then you had to fight your way from 17th street to 20th street. Everyone wanted to tax you every block – that’s what they’d call it when they wanted something from you. It was all territorial then.
How did you get away from all of that?
I was too busy playing ball. My thing was sports, not knives, baseball bats and shooting people. I told them to go ahead with that, but I’m playing sports. I was a four sport athlete and was invited to go to Washington, DC to meet President Nixon because I was a good basketball player in high school.
Why choose football over basketball?
I liked the violence. I never wanted to get beat and football was more physical – I liked that. I used to have a system. I would throw 100% of myself at 50% of a bigger player like a lineman. That would create at least a stalemate if not a victory. And a stalemate was a win if it created a pileup.
What happened that had you go from San Diego to Cincinnati then the Steelers in 1970?
Cincinnati traded for me then traded me to Pittsburgh. I was a pretty quiet guy when I got there. I just wanted to do my job and get the hell out of there. They had a lot of guys breathing down your neck then and I just wanted to go do my job.
What were they telling you?
Chuck Noll rode me like a horse! He wanted me to stand out more. He made me a captain on defense and would grab my collar and get face-to-face with my faceguard and yell at me. “Didn’t I tell?” “You know better!” He was real critical and I had to conform to what he wanted or be on the bench.
Did you get close with any of the guys there?
As the captain I just had to show them I could perform – then they would follow me and be with me.
I enjoyed playing but I didn’t worry about the other guys. I didn’t really hang out with them – I just wanted to play and get home. They were East Coast guys mostly there – I didn’t have much in common with them! They were kind of snooty – they had their noses in the air – they’d give you attitude and would walk way from you. Where I came from you grabbed the other guy and told them you’d meet them in the parking lot!
And then best friends afterwards?
Oh that depends on whether they whipped you or not! If they whipped you you kept that chip on your shoulder!
What happened after that ’70 season?
I was cut after that season. They had a lot of young guys coming in. I drifted away from the game after that. After I was cut I said the heck with it.
Coming to the team initially, I was excited because they were a high-class team. Then they went and traded for me. I was impressed by that. Teams don’t trade for you if they didn’t like you. If they didn’t think you were a good player.
It’s the same everywhere you go, really. If the leaders are willing to accept you that means a lot. And Joe Greene and other guys – they accepted me.
Do you watch the NFL today – like watching football still?
I’m a critic of the game! I watch the game and yell at the players and say what they should be doing. I’m critical of the players that don’t do their jobs. I do like the way the game has changed, but football is still football. I was taught in high school, it’s about blocking, tackling, and following the ball. If you do those three things you’ll win the game.
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