First, can you tell us what you’ve been doing with yourself since you retired?
I actually retired 10 years ago. My wife and I moved back to the Western Pa. area where my family is from. My father graduated from high school here though I never lived here in this part of Western Pa.
Since we came back I’ve gotten involved more in family things. I traveled for 40 years as a coach and I wasn’t able to be as involved with family. Now I’m involved in the church where my brother-in-law was the organist and doing things with my grandchildren. My daughter has two stepchildren and my son adopted three kids. Now I wonder how I stay so busy. Some days I just want to sit down! I’m very fortunate.
Stepping back, can you tell me how you got the job initially with the Steelers?
It was a unique situation. I was coaching at IUP – that was my alma mater. We moved back to Western Pa. in ’86 after I had coached at Wake Forest. In 1990, prior to training camp, Tom Donohoe called me. He and I had become friends since he went to IUP too and I used to go to mini-camps and watch the team and we’d talk there. I actually had interviewed and worked for Dick Hoak too in the 60’s at a Wheeling high school, so I knew him as well.
In ’85 I had interviewed with Chuck but didn’t get the job. In 1990 in the Summer Ron Blackledge was the offensive line coach and he had cancer problems and had to miss the entire training camp for treatment. So that’s why Tom called me – to see if I could help them out – that Chuck remembered me. I asked IUP if I could take time off to go and they said yes. I had aspired to coach in the NFL and they said go do it.
How did you get started?
I never saw a playbook until I got to camp two days before the players got there. My unfamiliarity with the situation and the fact I never coached in the NFL – and that there was no other line coach then – meant that Chuck worked with me constantly. I had him on a pedestal. That was my introduction to the NFL. I worked with him day and night.
He first took charge of the meetings and I sat in back – then I would run what happened on the field. Then one night out of the blue, he said, “Why don’t you take it tonight?” I said “Of course!” Are you shitting me? Of course I wasn’t going to say no! My heart was in my throat as I ran the meeting with Chuck in the back of the room.
A week later Chuck asked if there was any chance I could get out of my contract at IUP. He wanted to hire me. I called IUP and they said absolutely. That’s how I was hired by the Steelers.
What happened when Blackledge came back?
He and I worked together through the season when he got back. In the ’91 offseason I got a call from someone who wanted to hire me, and I told Chuck. He told me he wasn’t going to get into a bidding war – wasn’t going to jack my salary up. I told him there was no place I’d rather be. So he made me an offensive line coach – no more assistant. Ron and I both had the same title, though Ron was the guy in charge still.
But then Chuck resigned…
After Chuck resigned I held off. I was offered a job at Arizona but I was hoping Bill Cowher would hire me. He hired Hoakie and I knew he was in my corner. But it turned out Dick was the only guy Cowher kept.
I didn’t work in ’92. I watched some games and DVR’d them for film study. But I didn’t have a job that year. My wife supported us. Then the next year I went to Pitt with Johnny Majors then San Diego in ’96.
Was Chuck’s resignation a surprise to you?
It was not a good year there. But it was a total shock. This was a guy who won four Super Bowls! I just think Chuck was worn out, physically and emotionally. The organization went from not being very good in the 60’s to what it is today and I just think it all took its toll.
In ’92 the Giants head coaching job came open and it was rumored Chuck was going to go there. I called Chuck and asked him about it and he said no. That he was done – it was over for him.
In the end I didn’t know the internal stuff of the Steelers then. I wasn’t close then to the Rooneys, though I became close to Dan later. We became friends – he called me to see if I’d be willing to be interviewed for the My Life’s Work book on Chuck. Dan was kind to me over the years. It’s an unstable profession but he kept the team stable. They’ve had three coaches since the 60’s. Some teams have had that many coaches in three years.
What kind of impact do you feel you had in Pittsburgh?
I think my youthful exuberance was my greatest asset. I studied line play and was a guy who was willing to fit in. I wasn’t a guy who came in bringing in new ideas all the time. If I had an idea I felt strongly about I’d bring it up, but otherwise I kept my mouth shut and listened and learned.
I was younger. I could see things through the players’ eyes more. Tunch Ilkin and I are still friends. Dawson invited me to his Hall of Fame induction ceremony. And John Jackson was a good friend then too. I could interact with players then and figure out what was going on in their heads and get that back to the coaching staff.
Any moments that stand out most to you of your time in Pittsburgh?
It was a different time. The Steelers hadn’t been what they were used to being, team-wise. I remember that last game in ’90, we lost to Houston in Houston and that knocked us out of the playoffs. It was a unique experience that taught me about life in the NFL.
Chuck came into the locker room and said to the players that this is the way it is. “It all ends very suddenly in the NFL.” he said. That stayed with me throughout my NFL career. You work ridiculous hours and deal with so much stress then it’s over like that. It was an astute and poignant comment.
As a former offensive line coach, what are your thoughts of the way the game has changed since you coached?
There are a number of things. For a few years after I retired I couldn’t watch a game.
It’s changed dramatically. It used to be that if you won the battle of the hitting and imposed your will you’d win. Chuck used to say that. But not as much now. The physicality of the game will always be there to a point because of the size and speed of the players. But the game has changed.
As an offensive line coach I liked the old style of play more. It’s difficult for offensive linemen these days because they’re backing up more when they’re taking on guys. You don’t get the chance to beat them up now as much. The game has advanced from a fan’s standpoint, but I don’t like it as much anymore.
Also, Chuck used to call the NFL the greatest of team games. A lot of people may never touch the ball but the team would still win. Now, starting with free agency and the salary cap, that team aspect is slowly but slowly but slowly dwindling. The individual has become more important then when it was the greatest of all team games. The pounding of the chest isn’t something I care for. It’s one thing to be jubilant when you score a touchdown or make a play, but the emphasis on self and what the individual did turns me off totally. It’s my greatest disappointment on where the game has gone.
There was a time when if a guy did that he’d be gone. And they knew that. With salary caps and contracts they can’t do that any more. It’s not the players’ fault. They have no idea what it was like then. They were never exposed to it. But I don’t like the way the game has gone.
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