First, what have you been up to since your time in the NFL?
After football, I worked at Pitt’s communication department for two-to three years writing for the magazine.
Then I took an opportunity at Syracuse to work as a graduate assistant while got my Masters there. I coached part-time – the pay barely paid for gas money – and worked odd jobs. I was going through a divorce and paying child support. I actually had to declare for bankruptcy.
After that I got a job as a high school coach then as a defensive coordinator. for an arena football team – it was arena II – the smaller league. It was interesting -we did a lot of traveling by bus – the furthest we went was to Huntington, West Virginia! It was like a movie – a lot of characters – gifted athletes but guys from the penal system…guys with discipline issues…The team move around a lot before it finally went under.
What did you do after that?
I went back into high school coaching and then went to Kentucky and became a personal trainer – my cousin lived out there and I stayed wth him. After that I moved back to Pittsburgh and worked as a crisis counselor for 10 years. It was rough – working with a lot of at-risk kids. I think they liked having a big-bodied former NFL guy there. Sometimes you had to go hands-on – I got kicked, spit on, stabbed once…it was very rough. Very intense.
I stayed in shape though – did martial arts – something I was doing actually during my time with the Steelers too. And I met my wife there who is a physician. I was able to retire after that…
Ever talk to Greg Lloyd about the martial arts work?
I met him when I was young -when he just signed with Pittsburgh. I worked for Gus Kalaris = the Ice-Ball guy who was well-known on the North Side. I did that for years – when I was eight years old I started, A lot of the Steelers used to come down after practice on hot days and get Icees and cool off. Lloyd was one of those guys. He was a tempered due. I tried to approach him but let’s say he just wasn’t open to it at first. Later on he became friendly though.
I used to model my training approach after Lloyd. I watched Lloyd working out with guys – lifting weights with Terry Long, Brister, Woodson….after all of it was done he’d on his own go to the top tier of Three Rivers and spring down each section until he made a full circle around the stadium. It was s monstrous workout. I tried to follow that but it was monstrous.
As an undrafted free agent, what made you decide to sign with the Steelers?
Well, my father played for the Steelers in the late 60’s-early 70’s – John Brown. I grew up hanging around Joe Green, LC, Dwight White, Swann, Franco….we’d go over their houses and visit with them when I was little. So I was raised with the Steelers.
After college I went to the CFL and had a good season there. I sent my tape to some NFL teams hoping to get an opportunity and the Steelers were one of those teams that were interested, so I wanted to sign with them.
Any good memories of those days rowing up with the Steelers players like that?
My dad retired when I was born in 1971. We’d go visit the team when I was young -go to camp and visit guys in the locker room. I was only five or six then. But the vets loved having a little guy around. We’d go to the dorms when guys were trying to get some sleep between practices and I remember sneaking into the rooms of Joe and Dwight and throwing their blankets over their head and running out laughing.
That was then you could walk right into Three Rivers. We’d see the trophies – and I can still smell Art’s cigar smoke . They were always happy to see us – it seemed that way anyway.
I also remember my dad bringing me into the locker room to meet Terry Bradshaw. Out he comes from the shower, butt naked, everything swinging everywhere, saying “Hey little guy! How are you doing!”
When you got there as a player – did they know who you were? Did anyone take you under their wing at all?
I think some did and some didn’t at first, but word of mouth spread later on I guess.
In college, Joe Greene would sit and watch film with me when he had some spare time. But when I was there the defensive line dudes were great – Roye, Nolan Harrison – they were pretty cool wth me.
Dermontti Dawson – he was very encouraging. I worked hard every play in college and in the NFL some guys appreciate that and some don’t I used to go hard at it with Dermontti and Stai too. We had some battles. I got frustrated being there. I made the team but I wasn’t getting many chances to play. Dermontti told me he had been around a while and could tell I could play in the league. I was struggling trying to break through to become a guy they would depend on to play more consistently.
Any fun memories of your time there as a player?
Jerome then owned a Lambergheni. He made super good money. I used to tease him that I needed to impress my wife – that I wanted to borrow his car. He just laughed at that.
Oh and a great story. Back then we had to do physicals at the facility and they could take all day. The doctor would come and we’d have to all wait in line and the veterans would go first. So we’d be there all day.
Once John Norwig announce that if we wanted to get a head start on the physical we could go to the doctor’s office downtown instead – I think it was just past the Clemente Bridge. Well, 60 guys ran out of there and into their cars and raced downtown to the office. It was like the Cannonball Run! Time off was precious – any chance to get some extra time was priceless.
We got there and cars were parked everywhere. Guys were running upstairs trying to be first. I went into the elevator with a bunch of the offensive line guys like Dawson. Every time the elevator would almost close another guy would stuck his hand in until we couldn’t fit any more guys. I think we all felt like the elevator wouldn’t be able to handle the weight. Finally halfway up the elevator started buzzing and it stopped about three feet below the next floor. A couple brave guys squeezed through, but the rest if us waited until they reset the elevator.
It was just hysterical seeing everyone race out and race downtown!
What about on the field – any good memories?
I think it was against Jacksonville – I got in on a goal line defensive stand and Kirkland make a good hit on the running back and caused a fumble. The ball went into the endzone and Travis Davis returned it 103 yards for a touchdown. I think it was the longest fumble return for a touchdown at the time! It was exciting being in on that play.
What happened after that season?
They allocated me to NFL Europe after the season. I wasn’t happy about it. As an older guy I wanted to stay and work out and train with the team. The 3-4 defense was new to me and it was tough to get. A tough adjustment. It was a lot of two-gap, mirroring the offensive linemen to take on blockers so they couldn’t get to the linebackers.
It took time to adjust to that. I remember seeing Aaron Smith struggling too – though he was so light then – I think he was just 260 pounds, You need some ass to you to play! You can’t just fly off the ball either – you have to mirror step the offensive linemen.
But you ended up going…
I had a house and a wife – I had bills to pay. So I went to Germany and played for the Rhein Fire. It turned out to be a blast. We won the championship playing for Galen Hall. It was 14 weeks of football. Ever NFL Europe player went to Orlando to train then we all went to our respective teams and cities afterwards.
I had never been to Europe – it was interesting to see such a different lifestyle. But Hall was tough – he worked us hard – two-a-days every day leading up tot he season. We lost our first three gams we were so tired, but then it all kicked in. Other teams were taking it much easier – the Barcelona guys were on the beach by the afternoon!
How did that affect your time in Pittsburgh?
I knew I had to come out of NFL Europe with an impressive season. We needed to come back with something impressive to show for ourselves. I led the line in tackles and was third in sacks with 7 1/2 in just 11 games.
But it took it’s toll. I was injured – my back was hurt. It was a lot of hitting and practices for a long stretch of time. Backs and receivers – they don’t have to hit in practice like we do. But I pushed myself hard. And through a lot of double-teams as a defensive tackle.
But we did win a championship. That was my Super Bowl – I have the championship ring. I joke with guys that it says “NFL Championship”. It just says “NFL Europe”!
How do you look back on it all?
It was bittersweet. I think I could have done more. After I got back my knee needed surgery too. But my entire career I was around some amazing people – I even went to Chicago for a short while and played with Walter Payton. He, Bettis, Green, Dwight, LC, Swann, Franco….
Throughout my career I had to show that I wasn’t the spoiled ex-NFL player’s son. I had to get through that stuff throughout my career. I was caught in-between being a nice guy and not wanting to be taken advantage of and being seen as weak. But on the whole it was a great experience.
My dad and I have a nice niche. He was part of the only Syracuse team – with Ernie Davis – that won a national championship. Ernie was supposed to be drafted and play with Jim Brown and my dad in Cleveland, but he did of Leukemia. I was named after Ernie and tried to hold that name in high esteem.
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