First, tell me a bit about what you did after the NFL and how the adjustment was for you after football?
I owned my own business for a while – a landscaping business. It was something I was ready for after football. I just knew I could do my own thing and run my own business.
You were drafted by Baltimore in round one in 1964 but ended up in Pittsburgh – how did that happen and what were your thoughts on playing in Pittsburgh?
I was traded for Lou Michaels – I think Baltimore needed a kicker and Michaels could kick and play defense. I didn’t care much really. I just wanted to play football. It didn’t make much of a difference to me where I played.
You had 18 interceptions in Pittsburgh in just four-and-a-half seasons. What made you so good?
Well, I was pretty fast. And it is a thinking man’s game. I understood what other teams were doing and how they were doing it. In Pittsburgh the defenses watched film of the offenses and the offenses watched the defenses. I watched the players and their tendencies and that helped me to play against them.
Any players or memories then stand out to you most?
Paul Martha was the player I was closest with. Joe Greene and L.C. Greenwood were some of those most encouraging players that got there shortly before I left.
I remember both of my interceptions that I ran back for touchdowns – one against Don Meredith in Dallas and one against Philadelphia.
I also remember blocking two men on a punt return and Brady Keys returning the punt back for a touchdown.
I also remember just working on techniques and tendencies like tackling – working on every aspect of the game.
You were such a successful player in Pittsburgh with all of those interceptions. Yet people don’t seem to talk about you as much as others on those teams. Any reason why, do you think?
I think I was a controversial player – and outspoken Black players then didn’t get that attention. They wanted us to talk about football – when you talk about anything else it makes you too controversial.
What were you outspoken about?
I was upset that the schools there weren’t giving out scholarships to Black people and spoke out against that. They didn’t give those out to people of color. That ended up having people dirty my name up.
Is that what got you traded in ’69 do you think?
I was traded to New Orleans in ’69 – we weren’t winning then. They didn’t tell me why I was traded – I think that was the reason they traded me but I don’t know. But it didn’t matter. I was from a family of 11 kids – my dad always told me it didn’t matter how, just to make a living the best way I can, no matter what. So that’s how I felt about it.
Do you watch the NFL today – what do you think about the game today?
I watch the NFL sometimes. It’s turning much Blacker now – much more than when I played. I’m glad – they didn’t try to integrate players much then like it happens now today.
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