First, let me know what you’ve been up to since your time in the NFL?
Well, after I signed with the Colts, I moved to Indianapolis and met my now ex-wife here. I have two daughters out here.
I did a couple of different jobs after the NFL. I worked at Marathon Petroleum but then went on disability.
Football injuries?
Yeah. some are. I had major neck surgery – a level three spinal fusion. They usually don’t do level threes but my neurosurgeon spoke with a couple other guys and they concurred that if I didn’t have it I’d just have to have others later. I had my C4 fused to my C5, C5 to C6, and C6 to C7. Eight plates and screws. I felt really good for two years after it but the last two have been really bad. My back’s a mess too. I applied for disability and usually they say it takes more than one try, but I got it on the first try. So I guess I’m pretty screwed up!
Was the post-NFL adjustment hard outside of the injury issues?
I don’t think it was any different than most. Everyone thinks they’ll play for 15 years then make the Hall of Fame! But the majority including myself don’t have it work out that way. I played in Pittsburgh for a little more than two years then bounced around a bit – Cleveland, Buffalo, Indianapolis and Detroit. I hurt my knee in Indianapolis weightlifting but wasn’t really even hurt before so I didn’t know how bad I was hurt. I tore cartilage but didn’t realize it – I just knew I couldn’t push off on it and was getting pushed around. Then the following year the NFL went on strike and we got free agency. I just missed out on that!
Gary Dunn used to say that was when men were men and sheep were scared! We started and ended with the same team then. Now we can’t keep track of where guys are playing.
What brought you to Pittsburgh after going undrafted in ’84?
It’s funny. I was promised I would be drafted by the 49ers. But that didn’t pan out. I didn’t get any calls. But right after the draft my phone rang off the hook. I had offers from Denver, Kansas City, Seattle, Pittsburgh, and Dallas. In all humility, I didn’t think I was good enough to play after not getting drafted.
I chose Pittsburgh for a few reasons. First and foremost, it was closest to my home in New York. I figured that would be the easiest travel back home after I didn’t make the team. That’s the gospel truth.
Also, the tradition. Four Super Bowls, and the owners had a good reputation. Also, many teams had up to 100 free agents they’d bring in and after one mistake, they’d get cut. Pittsburgh brought in a minimal amount of free agents – and only guys they thought could make the team.
I’m glad I chose Pittsburgh. I still bleed Black and Gold. I love the team and the city – it’s a great city. I had a lot of fun there. I just wished I moved back there after I was cut by the Colts.
Any mentors that helped you adjust to the NFL?
I owe it all to two guys. Webby and Gary Dunn. I played offensive tackle in college and signed with Pittsburgh to play offensive tackle. But after two weeks, the offensive line coach Ron Blackledge came up to me and told me when the vets reported I’d be the fifth string tackle. I just thought, “Oh God. I’m glad I chose Pittsburgh – I’m going home soon!” I ran a 4.71 40 – on grass. Blackledge asked me if I wanted to try defense. I told him I’d try anything. So I switched to defense and after two weeks I started going up against Webby. Well, as you know, you start off at the line of scrimmage. But by the time the play was over I’d be 20 yards downfield after getting pushed around by Webby!
They filmed every practice, and we’d all go to our position meeting rooms after practice to watch the film. Jon Kolb was our defensive line coach – he was an animal when he played. Well, when we were watching film all of the vets would laugh their ass off at me. Kolb asked me what I was doing playing free safety!
Every day though through humility, I’d get better and better. Webster would help me. And Tom Beasley was an eighth year defensive end who was good, but he got hurt – tore his hamstring. So that helped me make the team too – actually I think that was another reason they asked me to play defense.
And Dunn too?
He was phenomenal with me. He taught me about the position. He could have turned his back to me and not helped me. Not everyone chooses to help other guys like that. But he helped me tremendously. I miss him – I haven’t seen him since Webster’s funeral. He was a great guy and so underrated. He should have made the Pro Bowl more than he did.
I stayed at his house in the offseason and we watched games on VCR. He was knocking the shit out of centers. He didn’t get enough notoriety.
Any fun memories of your time there in Pittsburgh?
In Pittsburgh we had the toughest practices. Nothing compared to those. We’d do two-a-days every day. When I got to Detroit, they didn’t do anything like that, which I guess reflected on their record. But we’d do 350 yard dashes in Pittsburgh. The receivers got to do them earlier before practice when it was cooler. We did ours after practice. Chuck Noll would stand next to one of the cones and tell us “Anyone can be last, but not just anyone can be first!” It was hot, but we’d turn on our jets then. We didn’t want to be last – he knew how to get under our skin!
Also in my first year, at the end of camp we’d practice in our shorts and helmets. Kolb would ride me every day. He was trying to make me better, but he’d get me so mad. I wanted to hit that guy – he’d get me so worked up.
Well, I’m practicing against Webby an we’re supposed to be going at half-speed. But I’m so worked up because of Kolb that I was being too aggressive. Finally, Webster just stopped and said “If I wanted to, we could go inside and put on pads and really go at it, you asshole.” I was going to shit a brick. I thought “Oh God, he’s really mad at me!” I went to Kolb and told him Webster was mad at me, and he just laughed at me.
What happened after year two in Pittsburgh though?
That third year, I was having a good camp – the best I had in Pittsburgh. But Noll’s philosophy in the draft was to take the best available player. My first year round one he took Louis Lipps, the second year Daryl Simms. and that third year he took Gerald Williams. There was just no room for me there. I was making the least money out of all of them but there was just one guy I honestly thought I was better than that should have gotten cut before me. I was the most expendable so I was the one let go.
I got picked up by Cleveland right away and played one game there. But they played defense very differently than Pittsburgh did and I had just one week to prepare. In Pittsburgh for example they lined up right over center. In Cleveland they played way off the ball. It was a reactive defense – Pittsburgh’s was an attacking defense. If I was given more time I would have gotten used to it, but I wasn’t given that chance. Sometimes politics plays a big role in decisions and influences more than what fans realize.
Any thoughts on the way the game has changed since you played – especially as a former nose tackle?
The game has changed tremendously. I think free agency has probably ruined the game. It’s great guys are getting more money – they deserve it. But they’ve gotten spoiled too. Like Antonio Brown sitting out a game. Back then we’d have never done that – just mostly out of loyalty to our other teammates.
Noll was old school – he didn’t say much, but when he did you listened. If Brown did that under Noll, he would have been gone after the game.
There were a lot of concussions then too but we had no process then – you’d just go right back in the game afterwards. The equipment is supposed to be better now, but I’m not sure.
I’m old school. I just feel now that it’s all about the money. We would have played for free then out of our love for the game. Now it seems to be about the money. It’s a big difference.
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