First, can you let us know what you’re doing with yourself now?
I’ve been in real estate now for 22 years. We put up and manage apartment buildings in New Jersey. We did houses but changed to apartments – we like that monthly cash flow! We have over 3,600 units and put up a couple new buildings a year.
Was the post-NFL adjustment difficult?
It was difficult. I was playing football for so long. I got to keep good hours -wasn’t up all night and managed to be productive. Football ingrains that stuff into you.
I just turned 55 and just had my left hip replaced. Thank you Three Rivers! I’m doing so much better now – no more chronic pain.
What were your first impressions and experiences of the Steelers rivalry?
It was a street fight, straight up. The defensive linemen – we used to say we’d punch them before they punched us. We knew we had our work cut out for us. Those were really good Steelers teams. We started kicking their asses when we moved to Baltimore but in Cleveland it was a real rivalry.
Foster – they’d run that boss toss to death at us. Foster murdered us – he ran so low and was so strong. I spoke to Bettis once asking about that play – trying to see if I could learn some of their bells and whistles. He just told me “I look for two pairs of gold pants together – that’s where I hit it!”
Jerome only had one 1oo yard game against us. We had animals on our defense. In 2000 we allowed just 903 yards rushing. Eddie George, Jerome, Dillon – they didn’t sniff 100 yards. People want to coddle the ’85 Bears because they were clowns – they were popular with that dance and song. But we have up 163 points in 2000 – they gave up 185 in ’85.
Who were the guys that mentored you most?
The one guy that should be a Hall of Famer – Clay Matthews Sr. He could do it all. I even gave up some shine for him. He was tired of chasing the little guys and wanted to rush the passer, so they moved me inside so I could freak with Michael Dean and let him rush the passer. Clay taught me how to be a pro and technique too.
Michael Johnson and Bubba Baker helped too – but Bubba stopped talking to me once he started worrying about losing his job.
Any moments or matchups stand out to you?
Decembers at Three Rivers – it was like playing on the street. It was the worst field – super thin and hard as a rock.
I had some rough and tumble battles with Leon Searcy. When we played Pittsburgh Ozzie Newsome would say “It’s Searcy week!” I told him “I’ll get him – watch!” He was sneaky and strong, but I started figuring him out. I used my hands and tried to keep him off-balance – you couldn’t let him get in on you – he’d cave your chest in! He and Larry Allen – you didn’t want to be in a phone booth with those guys.
When Searcy came to Baltimore he still didn’t like me. I was taking karate then and he just pissed me off. He never ended up playing in Baltimore because I messed up his shoulder and elbow doing a karate move. Billick was pissed at me for that.
Why didn’t Searcy like you?
I tried to joke around when I beat him – I’d wink at him and joke but I think he thought I was being condescending.
The move to Baltimore – how did that impact on you and how did team handle that?
Before Billick in Baltimore we had some tyrants in Cleveland – Marchibroda and Belichick. Ted Marchibroda – everyone thought he was nice but we used to say he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He had a mean spirit. Brian came in and took care of us. He didn’t let us kill each other in practice. That’s why we won a Super Bowl with him.
In Cleveland, we were playing in the stadium that Babe Ruth hit a home run in. We had a full stadium even though we were 3-13 my rookie year though. The fans loved football and were supportive. My rookie year we were trash but they supported us.
Bud Carson was fired six games into that season. I was asking myself “Where they hell am I?” Guys were smoking cigarettes during practice. Bubba Baker was on the sidelines drawing up plays during games while smoking and drinking coffee. Those were the end of there North Dallas Forty days.
When Belichick was the coach – he was so mean. He kept the starters into the fourth quarter of preseason games. Our guys were quitting – he’d run us through three hour practices and had us going in full pads on Fridays before games. I was so blessed to be young and poor so I stuck with it. Belichick didn’t get that it wasn’t about him.
I did love my defensive coordinator – Nick Saban. He had us run things in practice that the offense couldn’t stop. But Belichick wouldn’t call it during games. He was too conservative. That was so frustrating.
When Brian arrived he took care of its physically and mentally. He stopped us from beating ourselves up in practice. We weren’t murdering ourselves anymore.
Any in-game moments stand out most to you?
The first play of a game versus the Steelers in the 2000 season, we ran a stunt and it came wide open. It was like the red sea. Kent Graham – we told him it wasn’t his day! You could tell he wanted no part of it.
We’d also play cards on the plane and Vinny Testeverde would play. We’d call it the Sunday flu when it was third down versus Pittsburgh. He had an incredible arm but when they played the theme from Jaws and he saw Greene and “Avoid Lloyd”, and Big Play Ray Seals – he wanted not part of that either.
And there was one play where Tom Newberry in a Monday Night game dove at my knees. I couldn’t believe it. Larry Webster – he was always paranoid about that stuff. He asked me what happened and I told him we needed to get Newberry. I was kidding, but the next play we ran a stunt and Webster hit him so hard in the facemask it exploded all over the field. He destroyed that helmet.
How has the rivalry and game changed today?
I did radio for five years for Baltimore. Heinz Field – it’s not the same environment as Three Rivers. You knew you were in a world of hurt when you played in Three Rivers. Someone was coming out bleeding. Both teams’ were playing with phsyicality. Someone was coming out bleeding out of this. Now, I loved the fans but they treated my mom and dad with disrespect and I had a problem with that. But I was a Steelers fan growing up so I couldn’t hate the fans – it would be like hating myself!
But I enjoyed those games then – we were two titans playing against each other.
Now, I don’t even look at the rivalries anymore. The game has changed, the division has changed and the game is not nearly as physical. We’d get arrested today for some of the things we did then – if not arrested, there would definitely be payroll deductions!
And the game itself?
I respect them saying they are trying to make the game safer, but then they make them play on Thursday nights. How is that making it safer? I remember when we played on Mondays, how hard it was to train our bodies to be ready for the next week. Having them play on Thursdays is criminal.
And the concussion thing – I didn’t even know what the symptoms were then. A doctor would come up to us if we were dinged and hold fingers up, and if we were within two we’d go back out and play. Thank God I’m still here mentally. It caused me depression – I had to go to therapy for that. The drama and stress of not knowing if you’re next. If you’re going to be the next one to pay the price. And people treating you differently. I’ve had people put their hands on my face asking me how I am. Like, I’m right here motherfucker! You don’t need to do that!
It’s caused a lot of stress. It’s what you don’t know may happen. Belichick put us through hell in Cleveland. I’m just glad I am ok now and had youth on my side then to deal with it.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
