First, can you let me know what you’ve been up to since your playing days?
You know what they say – life is about relationships. Cody Risien and George Lilja were friends of mine from Cleveland and they got me into the medical MRI scanner business – selling those. They were booming at the time. I’ve been in that business ever since.
It’s not as thrilling as the NFL but not as nerve-racking either!
Was the post-NFL transition difficult?
It was definitely difficult when it just happened and the way it happened, but it dissipated over time. Some carry it with them – I was more just upset at the time. Once you get cut in the NFL you can get another chance but people always ask “Why?”
I was cut because I was injured – at the time you couldn’t cut injured players. But the Browns said it was because I had a chronic injury that would never heal. There was some truth to that I guess. But it was intense when it happened. We had a nice run going with Bernie but it came crashing down suddenly. That made it tough for the first couple of years. But then I spent time with my wife and family and was able to turn the page.
Why decide to go to Pitt?
I grew up in Stamford, Connecticut and wanted to stay East. Penn State looked at me but I was a bit of a troublemaker then so that hurt me there. Pitt had more colorful characters there – I fit in there!
Pitt was my best option at the time. They were so stocked with talent it was ridiculous. I had to break into that lineup. When I got there in ’79 they had 12 guys that made the pros the next year. They were national champions in ’76. I knew if I played here it would help me to be able to compete with the best. In the New England area schools like Boston College and Syracuse were not as good.
Were you excited to be drafted by Cleveland?
I didn’t have any feeling for it then. I didn’t even know where Cleveland was then! But there was a lot of pride I felt being in Pittsburgh – playing for Pitt and following the sports teams.
My wife was from Sharon, Pa. I liked that I stayed close to the area. That I wasn’t drafted by a team like Seattle all the way on the West Coast. And as a marginally talented guy, I was just happy to be drafted! I was scrappy but my stats didn’t jump off the paper.
Were you ready for the Steelers rivalry?
We hadn’t won at Three Rivers when I got there. But what showed me how big the rivalry was was my rookie year when we had that big brawl. I learned quick – that was our first game in ’83 against them – in Cleveland. Lambert slammed Sipe on the sideline – unlucky for him it was on our sideline. But he didn’t seem to care. He was tough as nails.
I watched the news that night and saw us all piling on him – including my number 72. I was worried then that he might see that footage and look of revenge on all of us!
The offensive line told me that they’d get kicked in the nuts not infrequently under the piles. It was a tough rivalry – we went at it.
The change occurred in the mid-80’s – before that we were just trying to compete with them. We found ourselves division champions finally. It felt good – it was a new era. It meant a lot to us. At some point we started expecting to win those games.
Were there guys you enjoyed – or didn’t enjoy – facing in those games?
Those linemen were just so unbelievably strong. Webster was so tough. He was absurdly strong. At Pitt we heard stories on him – on his workouts and lifting. I was a regular human – he was Iron Mike. His strength translated to the field well – and he was a fantastic technician as well. He’s a guy when he picked you up by the collar your feet were off the ground.
Also – they had guys like Terry Long, Craig Wolfley, Steve Courson….they were almost as strong as Webster. All of those guys could bench over 500 – I never benched more than 400.
How did you manage against those guys?
There were a lot of double-teams. Those were tough – I was thinking “Hey – you don’t need to double-team me! Webster doesn’t need your help!”
They tried to destroy noseguards – to take them and drive them into the secondary. They established the line of scrimmage – they did that well. I had some sleepless nights before those games, thinking about those double-teams. You couldn’t get caught moving or sliding – that ended badly. You had to sort of guess where the double-team was coming from and try to split it. Courson and Webster – they made you feel like boys among men.
Any good memories of those matchups?
My first time facing Webster as a rookie – my first series- he takes me and just slams me. I was jittery in my stance before the play and when he threw me down I hit my side – I thought I broke my ribs!
Well I catch my breath and realize the ball is sitting under my belly! I realized that they must have fumbled the exchange for some reason and the ball ended up right under where he slammed me. Everyone thought I made a nice play and got the ball. I played it off to the crowd – I raised my arms to show the crowd what I did. But I could barely lift my arms it hurt so much.
How did you prepare for those games?
The running game was more prominent then – worrying about the passing game and pass rush wasn’t on our minds. My job was just to maintain the line of scrimmage and watch out for the double-teams. Forget about sacks and don’t even worry about play action. Any pass rush was gravy.
All week I prepared for Mike Webster and those double-teams. Webster would stand you up and the other guy would smash into your ribs. I practiced moving my hip into the side where the double-team was coming from. If I just didn’t get pushed back and occupied two blockers that was a A.
Ok – I need to know more about the your Masters of the Gridiron movie!
Ha! That was silly. Mike Baab was the center then – he was a big Texas guy and a character. His wife and he had this idea of making a movie based off of Conan the Barbarian. Mike was really into Conan then, They set up a film company and we gave up a couple of days off to film it. It was only 15-to-20 minutes long. It was something we all could laugh about. Mike chose me and Golic – we both were big guys with long hair. It was a source of comedy between us and anyone else who watches it. I don’t recommend anyone watch it though!
What do you think of the Browns-Steelers rivalry today?
I’m just thrilled Cleveland got its team back – I was worried about that when they lost the team for a while. The Steelers pounded us pretty good for a while but it got better again the past few years.
I look at the talent now in the NFL – the worst team can beat the best team. That wasn’t really the case back then – there were players then that were clearly flawed and couldn’t compete with many NFL players – you don’t see that so much anymore. And those Steelers teams of the 70’s – they didn’t just beat teams – they pummeled them. They were a physical dynasty – I think those are a thing of the past.
I am still fascinated by the struggles and abilities of players today. And the money they make now. Myles Garrett – I figured it out that he makes more every series he plays than I did over my career!
I still love the game and rivalry. I’m grateful to have played!
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
