I’m sure you’ve gotten plenty of calls since you announced your retirement?
I call it a graduation from scouting. All the calls and mentions on social media and really humbling articles – it’s made me tear up. It’s been something else – who would have thought that an area scout could have this notoriety! I’ve had some deep calls – getting into people’s headspace on what I meant to them.
But I tell people – it’s never been about me. It’s about the team. When it’s about you it’s about ego.
How did starting out as a coach, and GM of the Gladiators. affect your scouting/NFL career – what did you learn most?
I coached for 16 years and that helped me to know football. To understand by position each position’s role. But the biggest thing I learned was how to build relationships. High school players you recruit, coaches, people on campus. Even as the Gladiators GM, the Penguins were our partners and they helped guide me.
That relationship building was more important than the X’s and O’s. The X’s and O’s help you – you learn the characteristics by position of players – predicted by pass and run game skills, etc.
When I was at Weber State the old time scouts would bring us donuts as ice breakers. I always did that when I was a scout. No one does that now. When I did it other scouts would get mad – they thought I was showing them up. But no – I was building relationships. I remember one time a scout put his business card on my and threw my card away when I was going to get coffee. Then another guy came and did the same thing to him!
Why did you come on board with Pittsburgh?
In 1995 I was at Weber State. Back then we had no computers or video systems. It was all on beta or VHS. We had to go to the school library to make copies of tapes to send them to the NFL.
Well one day Tom Modrak called me up. He told me it was Tom Modrak from the Steelers and I told him I knew who he was. He asked how and I told him that I was from Pittsburgh too. I asked if he needed tape on a player and he said “No.” He was interested in having me interview for a job with the Steelers as a BLESTO scout. A long-time scout for the Vikings, Don Deisch, recommended me to him. I had been trying to get into scouting for a while. Don told Tom that I knew the West well.
I told him “Absolutely.” I was interested and he told me he’d fly me in next week for the interview. I asked if I could come in the following week and he said “What? Why?” I told him we had a camp in Fairbanks, Alaska we were holding next week that I ran. There were players up there because of the military bases they had and I had committed to the camp.
What did he say?
He said “Ok. I’ll just interview more people until you get here.” Well I don’t know if he ever did that. But I remember hanging up the phone and my mind was racing. I felt like an idiot – that was my dream job – I was from that area. And I just blew it. But he kept his word and waited for me. I called some of the scouts there in advance and asked them about the job. One told me I should just go there, shut up and listen to him, and I’d have the job by lunch. I did that and I got the job by lunch!
So what’s next for you now?
I have a couple of things – they just have to materialize. One may be in Arena Football – not in Pittsburgh though. They want to rebrand and restart – I have a close friend who’s involved there.
There are some other things I may do as well. I’m looking to do more short-term things that give me some free time now. I’m betting on myself – I’m a creative person Who knows what’s next, but each chapter is different and exciting. And the Steelers set me up with financial security. I’m a lifetime Steeler and wouldn’t look for another job in the NFL
It’s not all glamour – a lot of travel and roadwork. What was the hardest part of the business for you and what did you enjoy most?
It’s a lot like Groundhog Day. I work from the time I get up until I go to bed – I do that so I can have weekends off to relax from the grind. Then the grind starts up again. I’m a different breed, I know. I’m up by 4 a.m., work out, then I’m at a school by 7:30 a.m., watching tape, or talking to people. I’m there learning as much as possible.
Everything we do is based on subjectivity – of the people we speak to and their opinions of players, of our own opinions as we watch film.. We pull it all together into an objective point of view. But that’s where the mistakes happen. When you go from subjectivity to objectivity.
I was in a new office every day – I loved that. I had new people to associate with every day. You have to learn how to be a good guest. I grew up with a lot of the people I work with now. I tell people to watch out how you treat people. The guy you think is a rumdump may grow up and be a head coach some day.
I went to Washington State once and there were three graduate assistants watching videos in a closet. One guy was the video guy and kicking coach. The other two were offensive and defensive coaches. I thought at the time – those guys are rumdumps. But the video guy was a guy from Mt. Lebanon who founded DB Sports – the company that half of the NFL and college use for video and replay systems. Another was James Franklin – he turned out ok! And the other was Kevin Sumlin who had some bright moments at Houston and Texas A&M.
You just don’t know who will end up being a head coach someday. You better be a good guest – they’ll remember you.
Who has helped you most to learn how to be a scout and what did they teach you that made a difference?
Don Deisch was one. And John Fitzpatrick – I called him Yosemite Sam. He always wore a cowboy hat and had this big moustache and red hair. C.O. Brocato was another one – I was given the C.O. Brocato award a couple of years ago by Neil Stratton. He was a legendary scout for the Oilers. Everyone knew him. If he liked you he’d introduce you to all of his contacts. Those guys would give you then inside info on guys you scouted because of him.
Once when I was going to Kansas – I asked C.O. where to park – I had never been there before. He told me to go to the back gym parking lot by six a.m. with two dozen donuts and meet him by the back door. I got there about 5:50 a.m. with two dozen donuts. – he was already there when I got there. We walked in and all of the hall lights started turning on one at a time like a horror movie until we were lit up, and then an old janitor let us in to the gym. He told C.O. “I see you brought a stray!” C.O. told him that he should take care of me from now on when I came to Kansas. Then C.O. told me to give the janitor my donuts. I told him I thought those were for the coaches, and he told me “No. My donuts are for the coaches – yours are for him.” Next time I had to bring four dozen donuts – two for the janitor and two for the coaches!
What has changed most in the way the Steelers have approached scouting over the years?
I don’t think much has changed besides technology and some analytics. It’ still people and opinions that blend into a player’s grade for the Steelers.
The biggest change is probably just the amount of people now in the organization. In ’95 we were at Three Rivers – there weren’t many of us then and we were all on top of each other. Now there is more support staff for the players and to help brand the team. The volume of people and complexity of the organization has changed. It doesn’t distract us from our day-to-day job though. And it’s a great thing for all of us – it’s a billion dollar organization and that is good for everyone.
How has the team used analytics to support the scouting process? Is it a big part of the process?
We used it more and more. They are great for alerts on things like size or production in certain areas of play – like on third downs or whatever. But on the same token, Aaron Donald for example doesn’t have the ideal size that analytics would say is ideal, but he is special. He doesn’t fit the parameters – he’s a different creature. But he clearly checks the production box. So you can’t let what you see on tape be ignored. Analytics is just another tool, like a medical grade.
So I have to talk music and how your scouting experience has supported your love of music?
I’ve been to every blues museum. In Clarksdale, Mississippi I got to go to Ground Zero – Morgan Freeman’s club. I went to Delta State to watch a game and decided to stay and go to Ground Zero and saw a blues singer- Big George something or other. An old blues singer. Then I went to an old blues club across the street – a small place that only had four lights including one in the bathroom you wished didn’t work. They sold coolers full of beer and the fridge light was one of the four lights. It was an old time juke joint and I saw some old blues guy there too. There was a guy taking pictures for a coffee table book – I have no idea if I made the book!
In Indianola, I got to go to the B.B. King Museum. I was done with my scouting work by noon and the other scouts asked if I was going to Mississippi State or the University of Mississippi and I told them “No – I’m going to the B.B. King Museum.” it was just 30 minutes away.
I was still wearing my Steelers shirt. There were two women working there and they asked me where I was from. I told them “Pittsburgh.” They replied “Vicksburg? Did we go to high school together?” I had to tell them again “No, Pittsburgh.” They asked what I was doing there and I told them I was scouting for the Steelers and showed them my Super Bowl ring. They took some pictures and I ended up in the B.B. King Museum newsletter.
After I finished the tour a lady with a huge hat and entourage walked through – it turns out she was the Congresswoman. She came up to me and asked me who I was. I told her who I was and she asked me where I was from, and I told her “Pittsburgh.” She said “Vicksburg? You’re one of my constituents – did you vote for me?” I told her “No – Pittsburgh!” She took a picture of me and I made it into her newsletter too!
I got great chances to see so many things that I wouldn’t have gotten the chance to see. The job works you hard – you have to use the opportunities you get to work the job and see the culture around you.
Has that in turn helped you as a scout?
I got the opportunity to work in a lot of areas. You see a lot of culture and things that help you as a scout. You learn about people – their culture and backgrounds. You learn different styles of coaching and football. The SEC is different from the Big 12, for example. That all helps you to learn about people and the players you recruit.
Another good experience was when I was in New Orleans and I got to go to the WWII Museum. I spent five hours there. My father served in the military and was stationed in Guam and I wanted to learn as much as I could about that time.
Any great scouting stories you can share?
I never liked to say I found a guy. I don’t like to tell a lot of the scouting stories – but I’m that guy that if you talk to me at the bar you’ll think I’m the most fortunate guy in the world or the biggest bullshitter. But people will tell you – I am the most fortunate person. God shined his light on me a long time ago.
Just recently I got to go to Mexico City for a kicking camp with Shaun Suisham and Raul Allegre. We brought in Alfredo Gachuz there but ended up releasing him. I got a call from Toronto of the CFL – they asked if we were serious in signing him. They wanted to draft him. We released him and I took him to the airport so he could compete in Toronto – they ended up drafting him in the first round.
You can’t forget those experiences. When we were in Ireland playing the Bears we all went out the night before and were scrimmaging the next day. It was hot and the players were struggling. That’s when the Steelers’ trainer at the time Rick Burkholder yelled “You can’t make the club from the pub!” Everyone started laughing after that.
Lastly. Any advice for people who want to get into scouting today?
Keep building up your football resume. A sports administration degree is worthless. You need real work experience. If you aren’t playing a sport get involved in the school’s athletic department – help with their recruiting efforts. The more gritty and grimy the stuff you do the more meaningful stuff they’ll give you later. Don’t skip the grimy stuff.
I used to make coffee for the coaches when I was starting out. The coffee was terrible and the coaches shunned me. I learned after that to make good coffee!
If you play a sport go and become a graduate assistant or intern in the football department. You have to build a resume and get a practical degree in case it doesn’t work out.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
