First, can you let readers know what you’ve been doing since you’ve retired from the NFL and how you got started in these new ventures?
Once I retired from the NFL, I moved to Beaumont, Texas and began to work on completing my Bachelor’s degree in Kinesiology. I then graduated from Lamar University with a Bachelor’s of Science in Kinesiology. Soon after that, I began to work on a Master’s Degree in Education.
During the time I was working on the Master’s degree, I received a phone call from my former high school football coach. He and the athletic director for Corsicana ISD called and asked if I would be interested in moving back home to teach and coach football in Corsicana. I accepted and immediately moved back home to Corsicana where I graduated and played football for the Corsicana Tigers.
I worked for Corsicana Independent School District as a teacher/coach for four years at the Junior High and the High School. During the time I was teaching and coaching, I continued to work on my Master’s degree at Stephen F. Austin University in Nacogdoches Texas. I completed my Master’s degree and accepted an Administrative job at the junior high as an Assistant Principal. I served as an Assistant Principal at Collins Middle School for one year. One year later, I was asked to join my former High School football Head Coach, Don Denbow. Mr. Denbow had just accepted a job as the High School Principal. Mr. Denbow asked me to join him and be a part of his Administrative team at CHS. I served as a High School Assistant Principal for three years under his leadership. Mr. Denbow was promoted to an Administrative Central Office position which left the High School Principal job open. The Superintendent of Cosicana ISD appointed me as the new Corsicana High School Principal of about 1,500 students in grades 9-12. I served as the High School Principal for four years.
The previously mentioned Superintendent retired and Mr. Denbow took over as Superintendent of Schools for Corsicana ISD. Again, he asked if I would work under his leadership. I accepted and became Director of Administration for Corsicana ISD. A couple of years later I became Executive Director of Administration for Corsicana ISD, and currently still hold that position. I think this year will complete 24 years of educational experience for my educational career.
How Hard was it for you to adjust to life post professional football, and how did your time in the NFL help you get started in these new ventures?
Adjusting to life after football was very difficult early on. The idea of suddenly not participating in something I have been doing sense 8-9 years old was very hard to accept. Also, dealing with the perception of failure from self, family, friends, and others, was at times overwhelming!!! The transition was somewhat difficult early, but became manageable mainly because my parents still lived in Corsicana, as well as my future wife. Somehow I knew I needed to get back to my home and begin a family, as well as care for my mother and father.
I guess spending time in the NFL could have directly or indirectly affect the transition. Maybe the toughness one develops while playing a sport at such a high level helps to make adjustments in regards to how one deals with the pressures of life. You learn early in the sport to suck it up when things get tough. I don’t think every professional football player plays as long as he projects himself to play, therefore, there is some adjustment to be made when it stops.
You work closely with kids-how does your NFL resume help you in this regard?
Well, when dealing with kids, it is very important that they can relate to you and understand what it is you are attempting to communicate with them. Before any of that can happen, one must build some sort of relationship individually with the kids you are working with. There must be some sort of connection that needs happen early in the relationship. The NFL is the most popular sport on earth. The idea of someone close by having played in the NFL gets the attention of kids quickly!!! What happens after that will result in continuing to keep them engaged in the learning process.
You were drafted by Atlanta in 1985 but didn’t debut in the NFL until 1987, with the Steelers. How did you end up in Pittsburgh and what happened those two seasons prior to 1987 ?
Actually I was drafted by the Washington Redskins in the 6th round in the 1985 draft. That year Washington traded a couple of early picks and had only 3 draft picks in six rounds. I was the third pick following Raphel Cherry from Hawaii, which was in the 5th round, and Tori Nixon from San Diego St. in the 2nd round.
I was drafted to Washington as an H-Back prospect. The skins had at the time Clint Didier, and Rick(Doc) Walker as the H-backs. Donnie Warren and Anthony Jones played the traditional blocking TE position. This was a huge adjustment for me!! The skins also drafted Terry Orr from U Texas. Terry was UT’s tail back transitioning to H-Back. The skins also signed a couple of H-Back types from Brigham Young, and a couple of true TE’s. The 1985 camp was very competitive to say the least. There were some injuries during camp that resulted in some players being put on Injured reserve. Terry received knee surgery that year, and remained on IR for the season. I was on the Washington Redskins Team picture for 1985, but later was placed on injured reserve for the 1985 season. I remained inactive through the entire season only coming close to be activated when I think Didier and or Donnie Warren were temporary Injured.
The 1986 season was a different story. The Redskins were obviously loaded with high quality tight ends and H-Backs!!!! I don’t think there were any tight ends drafted or many if any brought to camp that year. I hear that 1986 was one of the most competitive years of competition among tight ends ever in Washington. I remember Clint having hamstring issues during camp that kept him out for a bit. He said to some that he needed to get back in practice before he lost his job. Everybody had a very good camp. At the end of camp I was placed on waivers from the Redskins. Donnie Warren, Anthony Jones, Clint Didier, and Terry Orr were the tight ends and H-backs for the 1986 season.
I then moved back to Beaumont Texas, where Lamar is, to complete College. I was in Beaumont for a couple of months and received a phone call from my agent saying that the Pittsburgh Sleelers were interested in me attending camp for them for the !987 football season. I accepted the offer of course. Now, again I had to make another adjustment to what was required of me. Pittsburgh did not use H-Backs! They used traditional blocking tight ends . So, I went from being an H-Back type to Blocking first type. Major adjustment! To make long story short, I was able to make it through the strike situation in 1987, and ended up starting at tight end for the Steelers for 13 straight games.
Coming from a smaller school like Lamar, what was your biggest adjustment to the NFL?
There were several areas that resulted in huge adjustments to the NFL!
The first year at Lamar, the head coach at that time (Larry Kennan) ran a pro-style offense with spread formations and one back. Later when he left Lamar and Ken Stevens was hired as the head coach, the philosophy became more of an outside and inside veer, passing every now and then.
So the first adjustment was trying to understand a new pro-style type offense that the Redskins ran, and try to learn it quick enough to make the team. During that time I had to learn two positions. The traditional blocking tight end, and the H-Back tight end. This was not easy! I used to wonder if the coaches at that time understood how difficult it was. I think I had them fooled for a bit because I was learning relatively fast.
The second adjustment was trying to fit in. There were a lot of people in the NFL that would not let you forget where you came from( Lamar). I say that, but, there were also some that made it clear it didn’t matter. The Redskins had a few big time players from what some would consider small schools. Darrell Green, Ken Coffey, Monty Coleman, and several others.
Another major adjustment was trying to keep the confidence up as a player and showing that I belonged in the NFL. I will never forget arriving at Redskin park and seeing Joe Theismann and John Riggins for the first time in person. I wanted to run up to them and ask for their autograph! And then soon after that had to go to meetings with them, then practice. So, one day I was at Lamar hanging with friends, then the next day I am catching balls from Joe Theismann and running routes with Art Monk.
One Adjustment, that many usually mention, is adjusting to the competition at the NFL level. That was tough! But at times I felt like it was something that could be done consistently if given the opportunity.
When I think back on some things, I remember making the adjustment from living in very small dorm rooms to having to find an apartment, or some sort of housing, in the Washington DC area, then in the Pittsburgh area, then in the Atlanta area. This was somewhat challenging at first.
Who helped you to adjust to life in the NFL, -and as a Steeler-and how did they do so? Any examples??
There were a couple of people who helped in making the transition to the NFL. I remember the first time reporting to Redskin Park for mini-camp. All but one of the draft picks were there as well as all of the free agents. The rookies were the only players attending for the first two days. There was this one guy from Nichols State, that was drafted in the seventh round. His name is Lionel Vital. I remember playing against this guy in college. He was a very athletic fast running guy, that possessed huge breakaway speed, and decent size. He was also very confident! We became friends right away and talked daily. He would say things like “man you know they drafted us to move some of these guys out of the way”. I would laugh and say man, you are crazy. So that helped to break the ice and also helped me to realize that I would not have been drafted if they did not think I was good enough.
There was another guys I met from the University of Tennessee, Raleigh McKenzie. I used to call him Big Orange. He has an identical twin named Reggie McKenzie. Reggie was drafted by the Raiders as a linebacker. Raleigh played offensive line. A great guy that was soft spoken, but as strong as I have ever seen. He dominated at his position from the very beginning! Absolutely no transition as we could see. This guy was good! I think he played in the league for about 15 years!!! He and Lionel became very good friends of mine. We ended up rooming together during that first year with the Redskins. Meeting and knowing these guys was huge in adjusting to the NFL.
There were some players that I became friends with that also made the adjustment smoother. I will never forget Monty Coleman, the Super Man. Monty played linebacker and was also from a small school. I believe he was from Central Arkansas. I have never seen anybody as big as this guy, and as fast, except for Dexter Manley. Monty would ask me to sit and eat with he and his crew during camp. He also would protect me from some of the other vets when it came time to entertain them at dinner. As with most camps, the rookies had to dance, sing, and do all sorts of things at the request of the vets.
Camp in those days were six weeks long. There were some days when I felt like I could not get through the day. There were also some days when I felt so discouraged from competing against guys that has been doing this stuff for years, that I would have periods of time wondering what in the hell and am I doing here. Camp was tough and very competitive!
At those times when I was at my lowest, Bobby Beathard and Billy Devaney would make an attempt to encourage me and others. They knew what it was like as young athletes. Bobby at the time was, I think General Manager, and Billy was I think in player personnel. Both were amazing toward me! I remember there was a time I guess I had my head down during a practice and Billy walked up to me asking what was wrong. Well, I could see how things were heading and it made me a little down. He told me not to worry…just be me, and do the very best I could. He also said that I had made some plays that opened a lot of people eyes, and that I was very impressive as an athlete. Those words of encouragement were words that I will never forget.
In Pittsburgh, the other tight ends became good friends of mine. Preston Gothard and Theo Young. To this day Theo and I talk occasionally. I remember one time Preston called me and asked me to go downtown to meet some people and eat. He took me with him and he introduced some people to me and we sat down and ate at some restaurant in downtown Pittsburgh. This was certainly a different flavor of people that I was used to. Definitely different from what was used to in the DC area. I will never forget Preston Gothard! I thought he was a good guy! Theo and I were actually competing for the second tight end position. Theo was drafted out of the University of Arkansas. Preston was the starting tight end. Pittsburgh only kept two on the active roster. Both Preston and Theo helped with another adjustment. Just about all of the guys were really great in Pittsburgh! I had known a couple of the guys from early experiences in life. Frank Pollard was a Baylor guy I used to watch while growing up. I loved the Baylor Bears!!
And, there was of course Walter Abercrombie. I have known Walter pretty much all of my life. He grew up in Waco Texas, where my Parents were from. Walter and his family knew and was close friends of several cousins of mine. I looked at Walter as an football star and idolized him in my growing years. We were roommates in camp and in my eyes became very close friends. To this day, we continue to talk occasionally. Walter was in my wedding 20 plus years ago. He was a huge factor in aiding my adjustment to The Pittsburgh Steelers!
In ’87, Ralph Britt and Theo Young were the other two tight ends on the roster. How did the team use you guys then and how competitive were you with one another for playing time?
Well, the way I remember ’87, Preston Gothard was the original starter at tight end. I remember Britt vaguely, maybe in camp, not sure. Preston had a knee injury in camp or during the start of the season and as I remember, and was placed on injured reserve. Again, that was a long time ago. The active roster included Preston Gothard and Theo Young. Then, after the strike, the active roster included Danzell Lee and Theo Young.
The team utilized us for the most part as blocking tight ends. As I moved into the starting role, there were some patterns called that included options for the TE. Theo and I were considered to be sort of quick with some ability to get down the field. In other words, some considered us to have speed to stretch the defense.
When you have two guys trying to make it and secure a lasting spot on the team, competition will be apparent at all times. Even though we were good friends, competition was always there. Basically, I was on the field as the tight end until we had a for-sure passing situations. We would then go to more of a spread formation and substitute another receiver type for the tight end. In short yardage and goal line situations, we would go two tight and add another offensive tackle type player to the formation with Theo at times lined up as a wing.
How much did humor play a part on that Steelers team, and how so? Can you give a couple of examples of some funny things that occurred, on or off the field?
Humor was always present with the Steelers! The guys were down to earth and fun loving good guys for the most part. In a very competitive and tough profession, you better be able to laugh from time to time. I do remember some things that occurred on and off the field, but I’m not sure it would be wise to put in print!
I do remember a situation in camp that involved myself. 1987 was my third consecutive camp in the NFL. It was my first with the Steelers. As you well know, camps for different teams differ in many ways. Well, for some reason, just before this camp I ran out of time trying to get my stuff together for the camp. In those days it was six weeks of camp. I didn’t really know what it was like in the city where camp was held. I didn’t know how close the stores were, how much spare time we would have with this team etc. So, in a moment of panic just before leaving Texas I noticed I didn’t have any deodorant and I didn’t have time to go get any before leaving my parents’ house. So I just grabbed the closest stick of deodorant I saw and ran to the car. I didn’t realize at the time it was my mother’s. Well, we get to camp and settle in and get adjusted to the daily routines. You know, you put things out and arrange your room to your own comfort levels. I did that. One night during a card game in our room (I roomed with Walter Abercrombie) some of the fellows notice my arrangement, I guess. I can’t remember who it was, but someone asked me “ say man, a what kind of deodorant do you use”. I wasn’t thinking, but I did notice some snickering going on and some weird eye movements and whispering!!! I responded as I turned and looked at my arrangement of my stuff and immediately remembered and realized that I had picked up my mother’s deodorant. I started talking and stopped when I looked at the Deodorant stick that was named SECRET! I just dropped my head and the entire room burst into laughter that last about 15-20 minutes, so it seemed. There was no way to explain what actually happened before my trip, so I just took it.
Several times during camp practices, I would hear some of the guys say…”say man, I need to tell you something, but it’s a secret” with laughter to follow. There were all kinds of remarks made that included something about SERCRET or SECRETS. The deodorant stick was a big pretty powder blue and pink container. It hurts just thinking about it!
After the ’87 season, you ended up back in Atlanta. How did that happen and how was it for you to go back to the team that drafted you, three years later?
After the ’87 season, I returned to the ’88 season training camp for the Steelers. I had the opportunity of being the starting tight end for 13 consecutive games during the ’87 season. As I recalled, this camp may have been one of the best camps I have had as an NFL football player. My confidence was about to sky rocket! I began feeling like I was about to figure things out. I guess it was about the third or fourth preseason game, we were playing the NY Giants. We were going for a field goal and as I covered down to protect, two-three guys from the Giants fell on my left leg which caused my foot to buckle under the weight. I was diagnosed as having a forefoot sprain. I tried to play through-out the game, which was a huge mistake. It only got worse. I eventually finished the game, but was not in good shape. I tried to practice the week following, but could not put any pressure on that foot. I knew this was going to be a problem, so I tried again a couple of days later, there was no change. The preseason ended and I think we were about to play the Dallas Cowboys for the season opener…or maybe it was a game or two into the season. Not really sure. Anyway, I remember being in the training room and coach Chuck Noll came in. He looked at me and my foot. He said “man this thing has really been bleeding out”. He then looked at the other foot and then said “wait a minute, this foot looks exactly the same”. He then walked out. I don’t know what he meant about that comment, but it didn’t feel right. I was experiencing some severe pain. And I tried my best to do what I could to get back. It just wasn’t happening. Soon after that exchange of events, I received a visit from the tight end coach. He expressed to me that the team was not going to place me on IR because they didn’t think the injury was severe enough to do that. He then expressed to me that I needed to do whatever I needed to do to get back to practice.
Well, to make A long story short, I reluctantly did what I needed to do. Days later I was able to get to the field without too much pain. I was able to get through one or two practices and get on film. The next day, I was called to the office and told I was going to be placed on waivers. The team was going to go in a different direction. This is how I left the Steelers. I was placed on waivers during the ’88 season, just before returning to the active roster. Not sure why…I did try to meet with Chuck Noll about it, but felt like he wasn’t straight with me. He said all the right things and complemented my efforts and abilities. But, I was still placed on waivers. I thought my playing days were coming to an end. Just when I thought I was about to figured things out, it was abruptly coming to an end.
I caught the first flight out and went home to Corsicana. I was at home for about one week before getting a call from the Atlanta Falcons. Someone called and said they were experiencing some injuries at the tight end position and they were thinking about flying me in for a workout. They said they would give me a call after Atlanta played the Cowboys. I was at home in Corsicana watching the game thinking, I hope they give me a few more days to heal because my foot still hurts! It looked like they were carrying at least three tight ends on the roster. They were Ken Whisenhunt, Gary Wilkins, and I have no idea who the other one was, if there was another one. Soon after the Cowboy game I was called again from the Falcons and asked to come in for a look. Also during those days, I had other workouts for other teams. I was soon after signed with the Falcons. I have no idea how I passed the physical! I remained with them off and on the active roster for the remainder of the ’88 year. I did not play very much, but they kept me around. That is how I got to Atlanta.
I was drafted by the Redskins in ’85. Was put on IR, got credit for that year on IR. Was waived by the Redskins during the ’86 season. Signed with the Steelers in ’87. Started 13 straight game in ’87. The next year, got hurt during pre-season, never recovered and was waived during the ’88 season. Signed with Atlanta during the ’88 season. Reported to Camp for Atlanta for the ’89 season. I did not show for any mini-camps because I moved back to Beaumont, Texas to return to Lamar. I think that pissed them off and was released from the Falcons during the ’89 season. I received a couple more calls for invites to camps, but refused.
Art Rooney passed away after the ’87 season. How prominent was he with the players that year and how difficult was it for the players when he passed away, do you remember?
I really do not remember much about it. I do remember him coming in the locker room after games and congratulating players while shaking their hands and thanking them for their efforts. It may have been the son that I remember seeing. It may have been both, not sure. I remember hearing stories about Art Rooney. From what I have heard, he was deeply loved and well respected by coaches and players, as well as all Steeler fans. He was a very special owner to say the least!
What do you think of the way the game has changed today-and what advice would you give to players today entering the sport?
I think the game has changed in some ways to improve the safety of the players. This is a good thing. I didn’t, and still don’t, like some of the changes because it appears the game has become soft! I know we would be in camp for six weeks, now they seem to go about 2.5 weeks. We knew what we were signing up for when we chose to play the game. As the league continue to conduct research into the safety and the possible effects of playing the sport, more good will come out as a result of the inquiry’s. I just hope the league will be transparent with the findings. It seems to be more of a cautious, thinking, and careful demeanor, as opposed to a very aggressive, kill you, knock you out demeanor.
I would tell players today entering the sport to make sure they have a back-up plan for life unexpected outcomes. I don’t care how much money you make, when the game ends, you will still be a young man. We have seen it time and time again where multi-millionaires eventually go broke after a few years of leaving the game. It is hard to stop living the same life style that one becomes accustom to living while still in the game. It feels good, it smells good, and at the time, everything about it good! As you make that money, live on about a fourth of it and put the rest back!
Also, I would tell players to learn the game in great detail! You will become a much better player when you know and understand what your role is. You become a better athlete when you react with confidence because you know what is going on out there, as opposed to trying to think what you do next, and fearful of making a mistake because you are not sure.
I have enjoyed reflecting back on some memories that I have suppressed throughout the years! There are many that I work with that have no idea that I played professional football for the NFL! Unless some tells them or mentions it, it never hardly come out of my mouth. Many have no idea how tough it is for some to actually hang around the league for a couple of years. It differs and varies from individual circumstances to circumstance. I know my life has been a blessing! And I know I am where I am for a reason!! Only by the grace of GOD, have I been able to keep my head up and continue to press forward in this life’s journey! Thanks for the opportunity!
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