First, can you let me know what you’ve been doing since your time in the NFL?

Well, I’ve done a number of things. After football, I started as a commercial real estate broker, but it ended up being bad timing, so I moved on to commercial landscaping – I was a project manager for a large landscaping company. But that company went under.

After that I went into the food service industry and ended up working for Cisco for 24 years. It worked out well for me – it let me move down to their headquarters here in Phoenix where my family all are now so I can see them often.

How hard was the post-NFL adjustment for you?

It wasn’t the easiest. When I was involved in real estate the tax laws changed so investing in real estate wasn’t the advantage it had been in the past. A lot of people struggled because of that. I had a lot of deals in escrow but most didn’t get to the finish line. And as you know you don’t get paid until they do! So that was tough.

I was involved with the NFLPA and their big sponsor then was Oscar Meyer. I spoke to some of their folks and they were the ones that advised me to look into the food service industry. I met someone then at Cisco and that worked out real well for me. I worked my way up the ranks there.

While all of that was happening one of my kids was diagnosed with Leukemia and my wife was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. That happened all at once. We needed help but I got a lot of that from the people here.

Stepping back  – were you surprised to be drafted by the Steelers?

I was pretty surprised – I didn’t have much contact with anyone from the team before the draft. I was drafted as a linebacker by a team that won four Super Bowls and had two linebackers that ended up being in the Hall of Fame – and some other really good ones as well. I thought “Whoah – I better bring my A game or I won’t be here long!”

You bounced back and forth between linebacker and defensive line. Did that make it harder for you then?

The saying then was “The more you can do…”. I think that was a Chuck Noll saying. I was a good pass rusher in college, but as a rookie I broke my foot and was on injured reserve for the year. The Steelers didn’t have a strong pass rush that second season so they ended up moving me to the defensive line. That may have been my best season – I had a few sacks – but when I looked at the stats I realized that they weren’t counting sacks then!

The next season the team moved to a 3-4 defense. The defensive linemen had to be bigger then so they moved me back to linebacker. I had some versatility – I could play inside and outside so I got some playing time. We were blessed at linebacker then – I felt bad for the offenses that played us!

Who helped mentor you when you first got to Pittsburgh – on and off the field?

That was probably one of the things we did better than most teams. Everyone felt comfortable helping each other. Chuck also had a rule that anyone who was on IR for the season, even if they were veteran players, they had to report to training camp with the rookies the next season. So Ham and Wagner were there and that made it easier for us – they helped show us the ropes. They and the other veterans didn’t mind. They were all good guys – from the top guys to the ball boys. They were all open and welcome to helping others.

Any good memories stand out to you from your time there?

Anything that involved Gary Dunn! He had a very fun outlook – he enjoyed himself – we all found the fun in everything there.

When we practiced then, we only had 45 guys on the team. It was hardly enough to practice – especially after some guys were injured. I remember having to practice at noseguard sometimes and going up against Mike Webster. I just remember leaving practice with bruised ribs and feeling sore everywhere.

After the 1985 season, you retired from football. What happened that caused you to retire then?

I had a left knee that was shot. Technology then wasn’t what it is today. They just couldn’t repair it and it wouldn’t hold up any longer. That was kind of it. After six years that was about it. It was sad leaving all of the guys behind. But it was an amazing experience – I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

I still see some of the guys at times – saw Tunch and Wolf when the Steelers played in Arizona.  I haven’t been to the new stadium – I haven’t been back to Pittsburgh. But I want to go back soon.

What do you think about the NFL today and the way the game has changed over the years?

I don’t know if it has changed that much. There’s less contact but it’s still football. The guys today are much bigger and faster. My goodness, back when I played we didn’t have a 300-pound offensive lineman in any of my six years in Pittsburgh. Now, I don’t think there are any teams without a 300-pound lineman.

It’s still a high-impact, collision sport. I don’t know if it has changed all that much. It’s still about blocking and tackling.

Any last thoughts about your time in Pittsburgh?

I would have stayed in Pittsburgh if I didn’t move back home to Arizona. I couldn’t go without the 320 days of sunshine here. I think they have a lot less of that in Pittsburgh!

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