First, can you let me know what you’ve been doing with yourself since your time in the NFL?
Initially, I went into banking after football. It was a nice thing to start with. Then I got into marketing, and after that I got into the import-export business, bringing in Mercedes, Porsches – German cars. What we called grey market cars – ones modified to pass the EPA and DOT standards. Then we sold that off. I went into the insurance business afterwards but got bored with that.
I just tried to live my best life – I tried different things. It wasn’t an either-or thing. I just wanted to have fun. I had a passion to help people – I had a teacher certification so helped with kids and adults too.
How hard was that post-NFL adjustment for you?
It wasn’t always smooth. When I came out of the league I was like a lot of players – you always think you’ll end up playing somewhere else. If I could tell players anything – it’s that as a player you’re the last to know when it’s over. Chuck Noll would tell players that they might want to think about their life’s work.
When I was out of the league I was married, had a one-year old, had my townhouse – and we didn’t make a lot of money then. I managed it well. I wanted to be a motivational speaker after football – even printed out manuals. But I didn’t feel my career was over. I didn’t know what it meant for it to be a numbers game. I’m not sure most players know what that really means. They aren’t sure what they are dealing with. There are three elements to every story – the player’s story, the team’s story, and the facts.
In the end, the best thing was to get on with life quickly. I became adaptable to change.
When you got to Pittsburgh after being drafted in ’74, did anyone help mentor you and help you adapt to the Steelers?
I was part of that great ’74 draft. Some of the veterans like Holmes came in early and helped some. But mostly I was just observant – I watched the offensive and defensive lines. I worked hard every day and let the chips fall where they may. We couldn’t worry about the decisions the coaches made and hope you were just good enough.
What did they help you with specifically?
I learned a lot of the aspects of pass rushing. LC had his style – he was a taller guy. Holmes just pushed guys around for 60 minutes. You wouldn’t think anyone could do that for 60 minutes but he could. Joe worked on the inside and White crashed the line on the right side. I learned from them all.
My style became situational. I studied my opponent and adjusted my style to them. For example if they were taller offensive linemen I couldn’t do certain things. So I was adaptable.
As a rookie behind those guys, how much playing time did you get and was that frustrating?
I came in mostly then on special teams and short yardage and goal line situations. I played on the 6 defense – I was strong and quick – faster than people expected me to be. I was stronger than most thought I was – you wouldn’t know by looking at me that I could bench 500 pounds.
I remember in St. Louis I ran a 4.75 40. They told me they thought the clock was wrong – but I did it!
Did you sense any interest from the Steelers before you were drafted?
In my senior year I did. Jim Boston came in and asked for my transcript. I ran the 40 for Bill Nunn and he didn’t say much – just asked if that was all I had! And that it “wasn’t bad for a fat man!” There wasn’t an indication of interest at all. He could get under your skin if you let him. I do remember when he shook my hand when he left – he told me “Nice hands.”
In fact, I visited Steelers training camp a couple of years before he passed away. When he heard I was there he came out and shook my hand and laughed and said “Oh yeah – there’s that hand!”
Pittsburgh was a real special place for me to land out of college. I wasn’t sure what I was going to do after school – it was only late in my Junior year I even saw football as an option for me.
Any fun memories of your time in Pittsburgh you can share?
I remember being in the locker room in ’74. I was number 77. Joe was 75 and Dwight was 78, so I sat in between them. I was leaning into my locker when I heard a conversation between them. The other guys weren’t in the locker room yet. So I’m just overhearing them.
“We’re going to play this game in their backyard. They won’t get past the 50!” Then “They won’t even get a first down today!” So I lean forward a bit, poke my head out and say “You know they pay those other guys to play too right?” Well, both just gave me a look, and I leaned back on my locker!
Well, the game starts and we kick off, and it was the Raiders we were playing. They started at their own 18. I looked up a bit later and hear the referee then – Red Cashion – yell “First down!” I was thinking, there goes that one out the window. Then another first down. Then they cross the 50. I see Joe Greene adjusting his shoulder pads and chin strap and thought “Oh, it’s on now!” But then the Raiders get inside the 10 and down to our one yard line.
While this was all going on our defensive line coach, George Perles – grabbed me by the jersey and told me if they keep getting first downs he’s putting me in. I was thinking, why me? I didn’t do anything wrong! If they couldn’t stop them why did he think I could?
Well, he had a hold of my jersey and was dragging me everywhere – this way and that way. He sent me in when the ball was on the one yard line and told me to run the base six defense – I would take on the guard-tackle gap and I should tell Joe to take on the center-guard gap. I walk in the huddle and tell them what the coach said, and Lambert is looking at me and rolling his eyes when he sees me. But right before the ball is snapped, Joe must have thought he had seen something in the backfield and yelled “Switch! Switch!”
The Raiders ran left, and Joe was stood up by their big left tackle and the tight end blocked Jack Ham out of the play. But I was able to run down the play and make a tackle for a loss on the sideline. That was a highlight for me.
In the film session that week, Coach Perles went over that play a number of times. He told Joe that I saved his ass that play. All the guys looked at me and I just looked down! He told Joe that if he did what he told him to do he would have made that tackle for a loss.
That was the highlight of a special day for me in Pittsburgh.
You’ve just recently been nominated into the Southwest Conference Hall of Fame. What does that mean to you?
Making the Hall of Fame is amazing to me. When someone thinks of you enough to acknowledge and recognize you for what you’ve done, it’s almost sacred. It’s hard to write or say stuff about myself. When someone else does it – and it’s true – it just makes a world of difference. It hits me in a soft spot. Making the Hall of Fame at any level is the highest form of accomplishment you can receive – it’s like my Nobel Prize.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
