First, can you tell us a bit about your post-NFL life – and profession as an engineer?

Well, I went on to the oldest living player website some time ago, and I saw that I was the 236th oldest living player left!   There are twenty-five other Steelers before me.

I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree from Duke in 1953. My first job was with Shell Oil as an industrial lubricants engineer.  When I was drafted by the Steelers in 1953, I was a low draft choice. After my first job I ran a gas station and said this wasn’t for me, so I gave the NFL a try when I was drafted. I was in the ROTC then. My plan was to fulfill my military commitment as a Navy Lieutenant flying jets. But I lost my brother in the war in 1943. As a sole survivor designation, I was classified as a 4E and not drafted. So I ended up playing football.

I got a job with a plumbing contractor when I was playing, and didn’t do to well at that. When I left Pittsburgh in 1955, I worked for an engineering company in Philly, selling heating and air conditioning.  Then I went to Denver in the 60’s. I’ve been an engineer all of my life. Those are my skills.

How hard was it to adjust to post-NFL life?

I wasn’t really that hard. The benefits of being an NFL player though are hardly complimentary to an engineering career. You have to make your schpiel and prove you’re not a big, dumb football animal. Being a player opened up some doors, but only for a few seconds. You had to prove you knew what you were talking about.

You were drafted in the 30th round by Pittsburgh – as a center. How did you learn you were drafted and were you happy to be drafted by Pittsburgh?

I read about being drafted in the newspaper while I was at Duke. We had five guys that were drafted – another guy was also drafted by Pittsburgh – but much higher in the draft. I was the MVP and won the Jacobs blocking trophy  but that didn’t help me much then.

Pittsburgh was not may favorite city. When I left I had a lot of bitterness in my mouth. I thought it was the worst franchise in the NFL. I had a friend who wanted me to play in Canada during my time in Pittsburgh.  Pittsburgh signed me to a $5,ooo bonus when I signed with them. But my friend convinced me I should try my hand in Canada with the Toronto Argonauts. They signed me for $8,500 – which was all the money in the world to me then.  But I learned from an article in the New York Times that Toronto terminated the contract. Fran Fogarty of the Steelers called the coach in Toronto – who I didn’t realize played in Pittsburgh years before – and told him he didn’t like the fact that they were picking up our guys. So he said ok to Fran. Needless to say my return to Pittsburgh wasn’t pleasant. My experience there wasn’t good.

They moved you to linebacker as they introduced their new 4-3 alignment.  What were your thoughts on the move and how hard was that adjustment for you?

I was drafted as a center, but I played linebacker too. When they say Chuck Bednarik was the only two-way player in the NFL, that’s a lie. I played two ways too. I played center, but  when we were playing my rookie year, we couldn’t find a linebacker. We were playing a game and down 35-7 – the tight end caught seven passes in the first half.  I told the coach that if I couldn’t do a better job than the guy out there, I would save him the trouble and quit. He said “Ok, loudmouth.” So I went out there – and in the 5-2 we lined up in – lined up over the tight end. I said to the guy, “You’re not getting off the line again, you SOB.” I knew he would try to do one of three things – block me, block the tackle, or go out for a pass. He didn’t get off the line the entire second half!

Coming from the offense, I never played defense before I got to the NFL. My five years at Duke I was always on offense – my only tackles were on special teams. Knowing the offense helped me to learn the defense. Whether you’re in a 3-4 or 4-3, teams now always line up seven yards off the line of scrimmage. But the game is played within five yards of the line.  Now players never lay a hand on receivers.  They let them get away with a free release. Take a guy like Peyton Manning. If he takes a three or five step drop, every step he takes the receiver takes too.  If you can knock him to the outside of the field that disrupts everything. But nobody plays like that. I did. At 210 pounds, no tight end could beat me! You heard of shut down corners. I was a shut down linebacker. They don’t play like that now the way it should be.

After that I started at linebacker from there. I’m actually the guy they kept when they let Unitas go. I was not a fixture then – there were three of us on the bubble and two of us were going to go. We were all in the back of the bus after a game – shrinking as we walked off the bus. Back then if they tapped you when you got off the bus you knew you were cut. But they kept me over Unitas – that’s my claim to fame!

And you played two-ways!

I played linebacker, center, and long-snapped. I also played on special teams. My last year they drafted a center – Fred Broussard. Bill Walsh was the starter. They said I was too small to play center – I weighed 210 pounds, But that was categorically incorrect. I was quicker – and speed kills. Well, Broussard was the long-snapper, and he almost snapped one over the punter’s head in a game and almost got him killed. They cut him right after that. In the fourth game, they started me at center too. So I played linebacker and center at the same time. I was the second guy to play two ways! Those were the dog days – it was not a good experience. It was the only time I played for a losing program – in Pittsburgh.

Joe Bach was the coach when you got there – what were your thoughts on Joe as a coach?

He was a nice guy but he was in over his head. I didn’t realize that he had coached at Notre Dame and coached with Pittsburgh before too. The Rooneys had a strong connection then with Notre Dame.

You also coached at the high school level. What coaches and coaching lessons influenced you most?

My business was going well, so I retired in 1995. The school around us had had some hard times. We played pretty good high school football. I did some business with the school’s principal and was talking to him one day, and he asked if I could go help those guys.  They had just hired a young guy, so I went to him and told him that if he ever needed some help, I’d be glad to do it. He said yes, and I did that for five years.

My first mentor was John Rankin. he was a very good basketball and baseball player at Duke. He later became the editor of a sports magazine. Well, he took a liking to me. I got a baseball scholarship to West Virginia University and an academic scholarship to Columbia University, but I wasn’t sure about those. John took me to Duke. Wallace Wade was the coach there – he was a single-wing coach. He and John knew each other. Wade was a colonel in the Army and John was in the Navy. I sat down with them and Wade asked me some questions. John said he was concerned about my weight if I wanted to play football at Duke. I was 175 pounds then. Wade got up, grabbed my shoulders, looked me over…. And said, “Well, I wouldn’t worry about his weight. The best center I ever had was only 150 pounds!” He offered me a scholarship on the spot and was my coach.

Tell us about your initiative to get every NFL team to donate $100,000 to local schools for counseling?

Well, I had an idea and wanted to get the NFL involved. It’s not happening anymore, but it spilled over into another major project I have in front of me. At Duke, I had six broken noses playing center. I was the first player to wear a facemask. It was an old cage….I wore it successfully. When I went to the Steelers I brought it with me. That was an accident waiting to happen.

We were playing the 49’ers and I thought I had the fullback – John Henry Johnson – trapped on the sidelines. I pulled up – I didn’t want to smack him out of bounds, but he turned into me. My facemask was hit so hard it flipped up over my head. I felt the blow down to my rectum – it felt like he murdered me! So I decided to design something better for the nose. I designed a plastic piece that was round and went down to the chin. It was flexible and helped the blows glance off of it because of it’s shape. That was my engineering background – the energy of the blow goes to the helmet. I later changed the chin strap – instead of solid plastic, I took two layers of the stuff they make wet suits out of – polyurethane – and made a cup out of that and stretched it on my helmet. Now the helmet absorbed blows from any side – they blows weren’t transmitted to my head. That’s impact engineering.

I’ve made prototypes now of that design and I’m bound and determined to get it patented and to the NFL.

How do you plan to get the NFL to help?

After the class action suit against the NFL for dementia, the NFL – because it knew it did nothing to protect it’s players – created a $780 million trust to pay out to the older players affected by concussions. They are paying it out in three tiers depending on the degree of the injury. And I don’t know how they’ll figure that out. $2 million to the most severely affected players. $1.5 million to the next level.  Then $25,000 if you are older than 70.  Now, I can’t even get a hernia operation for $25,000. It’s a farce. Goodell has no idea what he’s doing. He’s never put on a helmet in his life and played.

But, he did say that he’s allocating $20 million in research funds to study concussion safety and protection. That’s where I come in.  He has no idea how to do that. And no one wants to touch how to re-design the helmet due to legal concerns. But I’m working with Duke’s bio-mechanical department to design my helmet for the NFL and am looking at that money to help me.

Any good stories from those days on how humor and the physical nature of the game then?

I had a roommate my rookie year – Rob Goana. He was from Wake Forest – we were competitors in college. The vets never really talked to you then, so we hung out together. He was the biggest guy we had – a real mean SOB. Well, in Philly, we lost a close game to the Eagles and decided to stay over in Philly.  Due to the liquor laws, all the bars were closed, but the Rooneys had a special bar they went to and told us we could go there if we wanted to. Well we went there to get a drink and it was packed. I was facing the bar and he was facing away from it, and this guy kept banging in to me. Well, Rob pushed me aside, grabs the guy and picks him up and throws him into the wall and knocks him to the floor. He told the guy that “You SOB – if you do that to my buddy one more time, I’ll kill you!”

I remember telling Dick Groat – he and I were friends and grew up near each other. I told him, you made the Hall of Fame as a baseball player, but what’s the difference between college baseball and the major leagues compared to going from college football to the NFL?  You won’t find my name in the Hall of Fame….not like Dick Groat…

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