First, can you let us know a bit about what you’ve been doing since your nine years as a Steeler?

Well after my last year, in 1960 I coached in the AFL with Denver, for five years. I did some scouting for the pros and at the same time I was starting my own independent insurance agency. It took a while to get that jock strap syndrome out of my system – I wasn’t doing so well so I got serious about the insurance business and it became very successful. In ’89, I sold the business to my two sons.

Was it hard adjusting to the life after the NFL?

I don’t really understand the problems some people have with that. I never had a problem. I got married and started a family. If you dedicate yourself to your career like you do your sport….it’s hard work. But if you can’t adjust to that then you probably aren’t going to be a good ball player or in business.

When I started the insurance business others told me that I would never be successful. I was never one for never.

I also enjoy the nature here in Colorado – hunting, fishing, hiking…. I can’t navigate the mountains though like I used to.

You were drafted in round six in 1951 by the Steelers. Were you surprised?

I wasn’t aware that I was drafted. No one contacted me. I didn’t know much about the NFL then. My dad used to ask me when I was going to get a real job when I first started playing in the NFL. I found out later I was drafted when I got a letter and contract in the mail. I was never contacted personally.

You had Coach Michelosen your rookie season. What was he like to play for?

He was knowledgeable – a good coach. In 1951 we were the last team to still play the single wing. Michelosen went to Pitt the following year, then we ran the T-formation under Coach Joe Bach.

What was he like?

He was a frustrated coach….He had a hard time adjusting to the professional players. He was coaching college before.

What are some of the things you remember about those guys you played with then?

Jack Butler and I came to the Steelers the same year. A few years later, the team had a Jack Butler Day. We were laughing. One of his gifts was a car, but he couldn’t get it at first – he had to pay for some of it!

Ernie Stautner never knew what it was like to go around somebody.  Once we played the Browns. Paul bBown had just invented the fullback trap fake, where they pull the off-guard and the fullback fills the hole. They gave the fullback the ball the first play against us and it went for a big gain. I asked Ernie who blocked him and he said two guys were on him. They ran the play again later and it went for another big play. This time Ernie said three guys blocked him. Well, when we looked at the film later, we saw no one touched him!

You had ten interceptions over your career – as a defensive lineman. How does that happen?

I don’t know – I don’t track those things. But in the early 50’s, we ran the 5-1 defense – with five defensive linemen. I was called a guard then – I lined up over the center in the middle of the line. The next year we moved to a 4-3 and I played middle linebacker. So I wasn’t a defensive lineman, even though I’ve been called that and a guard.

Who helped mentor you as a rookie and helped you to adjust to the NFL?

Back then, you were considered a rookie for your first two or three years. If you were giving a veteran player a run for their money, the other guys would try to hurt you. They didn’t want their buddies to lose their job. I enjoyed the games much more than the scrimmages. We’d practice twice a day. They used to say that if you could survive camp in Pittsburgh, you could make any ball club. There was some truth in that, I’ll tell you!

I remember the buckets of water they used in practices and in games. There was a dipper in it. But the coaches didn’t think that drinking water during the games and practices was good for you, so they put oatmeal in it. You ended up with oatmeal on your face whenever you tried to drink water or cool yourself off.

Those teams struggled then. Why?

We needed a quarterback. The first quarterback I remember was Jim Finks. He was a defensive back the year before before he played quarterback for a year or two. Bill Walsh was our center then. Finks went to coach at Notre Dame, so the coach sent Bill down to try to get him to come back. But Finks convinced Bill to coach at Notre Dame instead! That backfired all the way around.

We had Marchibroda, Earl Morell, Johnny Unitas – he didn’t make it out of camp of course.

Those are some good quarterbacks – why didn’t they pan out?

I don’t know why they didn’t make it. I guess he coach didn’t think it was a good fit for them. We also had Len Dawson, Jack Kemp…a bunch of them went through there.

You had a long career by any standard – especially for a lineman/linebacker in those days. What do you attribute that to?

I had my own offseason camp. I’d go back to Colorado and the first couple of years I worked at a lumber company. That was my conditioning. Then the next few years I worked at a brick company carrying the brick HOD. Now that was a real workout.

Do you stay in touch with any of the guys?

I just enjoyed playing the game. I loved it. It was a good group of guys. I’m disappointed that I’ve never been back to any of the old player meetings or events.

Why?

I wasn’t invited to any of them. I was selected to the 75th Anniversary Legendary Team. But I don’t live much in the past, even though I do have great memories.  I went to college after WWWII – I’m not a y0ung chick. Some of the players I know, they were either war veterans, or most, were out of college.

What players were you close to then?

Most of those players had their buddy cliques.  I wasn’t involved in those.  There was no one I really buddied with. I guess Gary Glick when he arrived – he and I went to the same college.

Any other funny stories about some of those guys?

Most I can’t tell! I do remember Ernie Stautner and Bobby Layne – they were great friends. One Sunday we had played the Giants in New York. Bobby told Ernie that he should stay in New York with him for the night and go out in New York. They would go back in time for practice Tuesday. Ernie told him he couldn’t do it – he didn’t have any money. And his wife wouldn’t be happy if he did. Bobby said he’d take care of the money, and eventually Ernie stayed in New York. He always listened to Bobby. Well, they got back just in time for practice Tuesday. He went home that night and when he came back the next day, he told me that it was the most expensive weekend he ever had. I asked him why – I knew Bobby was paying for everything. He said, that when he got home, he found out that his wife went on a spending spree. He couldn’t sit down because- there was no room anywhere because of all of the clothes she bought!

Any last thoughts for readers?

I had lots of good times with the Steelers and Art Rooney. It all changed when he hired Buddy Parker to coach and run the team. Parker had control over the players when he was hired, and he lied to me. I didn’t have much respect for him.

What did he lie to you about?

I wanted to be traded in may last year there. I told Buddy that I knew I didn’t fit into his plans. I asked Art first but he said he had no control over those things anymore. Buddy said he’d ask around to see if anyone wanted to trade for me, but he told me that no one had any interest. I knew that wasn’t true because I knew one coach at least had told me he wanted me. So, I knew he lied. All coaches want their type of player I guess.

If I had played another year in Pittsburgh, that would have been when the expansion draft happened and that was Dallas. I would have probably had to go to Dallas, and I couldn’t tolerate that heat and humidity. So it was a good time to hang them up. That’s when the Broncos coach called me to coach their defense. At first I said no, but when he called me again I decided to do it.

I had a good life and family. I’ve been very fortunate. And the Pittsburgh fans are the best in the United States. They really are exceptional. Pittsburgh really is the number one place to play.

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