First off, what have you been up to since your playing career?
I didn’t play football until I was a Senior in high school. After the Steelers I became a graduate assistant for Tom Osborne at Nebraska for two years. It’s a funny fork-in-the-road story – after that second year Coach Osborne told me he liked the work I was doing with the tight ends and wingbacks and said he wanted me to stay on and coach more and start recruiting.
What did you say?
I said “No!” I told him I needed a job. He said that they’d pay me a small wage but give me room and board, but I thought I needed a real 8-5 job. He was surprised and asked if was sure – I just thought a real job wasn’t supposed to be fun.
After that I worked in banking in the Ventura area for 45 years. I just recently retired. I also did some youth football coaching. My brother is still at Nebraska – he’s been there for years as their physical therapist.
What made you decide to start playing football as a Senior?
I was a long-haired kid in high school – I didn’t want to play football. My brother was the high school quarterback so I watched him play. But I decided I wanted to date a cheerleader – that’s what made me decide to play! I played tackle football with some of the Hell’s Angels guys as a kid – I was a big kid and loved to hit. So I did like to play.
I asked my high school coach if I could play and he told me he had wanted me to play for years. By the second game I was starting as a defensive end. The coach just told me to go and hit the quarterback every play.
How did you find your way to college football?
No one recruited me – I went to Ventura Junior College and got up to 235 pounds, I took off there and got heavily recruited then – I was an All-American there. Nebraska came along – they were a powerhouse then. They wanted a blocking tight end – they had a good receiving tight end but needed a blocker. Coach Osborne came out and met my parents which was a great experience. Vince Ferragamo was the quarterback there then.
A year before I was at junior college – the next season I was playing Oklahoma on national TV! They used me as a blocker – I didn’t catch many passes. We used a lot of basic formations – power I. We dared teams to stop us.
Were you surprised the Steelers drafted you?
I was surprised. There wasn’t a combine then – teams would call and have you come up and visit them. The Jets, Packers and Saints all had me come in. But the Steelers never showed any interest.
Back then the first six picks were on day one, then the other picks day two. I was their first pick of day two. Coach Noll called me and told me they liked my blocking and the fact I was the wedge-buster on special teams as a Senior.
Before rookie camp though they called me and said they wanted me to come in and work as a guard. I just thought “Oh, that’s not good.” I guess they had success doing that with Larry Brown and Ray Pinney and figured they could do that with me as well. I could pull and had good size. But it was disappointing.
When we went in for camp we went to the stadium and they had us get our gear on. We weren’t even signed yet. I was surprised – they weren’t supposed to do that. We spent the whole week in double sessions – in pads. That was when shouldergate happened – a reporter called the league and got the team in trouble. They were fined a third round pick – that could have been Joe Montana! When we went to camp later they moved me back to tight end.
Any good memories of camp?
Oh yeah. We had a big scrimmage on Sunday and on one play we ran a sweep. Jack Lambert came down on the sweep and I just drilled him. I’m not sure if he saw me but I just laid him out. Noll came running out and told everyone how great the block was and said every tight end should do that! Then he said ‘Let’s run it again!” I just thought “Oh shit.”
The next time I looked over and Lambert was pissed – he was doing that leg jiggling thing he did. He came down and LC Greenwood let me pass through and Lambert just clobbered me and made the tackle. Now, I was pissed, He was standing over me yelling at me “Fuck you! You won’t do that shit to me again!” So I ran and hit him in his earhole and a big fight happened after. He probably thought nothing of it but I remember it all.
I remember speaking to a number of players who said Lambert would get upset when they didn’t stand up for themselves like you did – did you have any sense of that later?
No – I didn’t really know that – that’s good to think of it that way! I haven’t really spoken to many players after I was released.
I had no trouble with the physicality in camp – Nebraska had some great players too. But I saw something in those Steelers players – they were all fast, strong and mean. But football was everything to them – it was first, second and third. You could see that. They were hard core.
I did have a nice experience actually 20 years ago when Nebraska had a lot of us back for a game and Lynn Swann was covering it. He wasn’t doing anything for a moment so I went up to him and said I was sure he didn’t remember me but my locker was right next to his in 1978. He looked st me and said “Oh yeah!” Then we talked for a bit after that.
I was proud to get there even if it didn’t work out. There were so many Pro Bowl players on top of all of those Hall of Fame guys. I thought I’d get drafted by the Saints – I figure I’d make the team if I did but it would have been a very different experience.
Any other good memories?
One on Terry Bradshaw yeah. I didn’t get the sense he hung out with the veterans a lot. He seemed to gravitate to the new guys more. After a scrimmage he came up to me and another rookie, Bobby Thompson, and said he had a new movie coming out soon with Burt Reynolds – Hooper – and the premier was that evening. He asked if we wanted to go to the premier with him. He told us he’d pick us up in an hour in front of camp.
Well, an hour later he pulls up in his 1977 Chevy pickup!
Did he play his music?
He did and was singing to it!
When we got there the place was packed. We got out of his truck in Pittsburgh and the crowd went nuts. The theater was packed to – it was so much fun for us as rookies to get to do that.
When we were in Latrobe the field was like a cow pasture and the rooms were 10×10 with no AC – it was like prison! My roommate was Willie Fry – he was their second round pick – a great guy but real quiet. A short while after camp we all had to sing – he told everyone he couldn’t sing. They kept yelling at him to sing and he tried to sing his fight song but he didn’t even know the words. Everyone gave him all kinds of crap – he turned red!
The next day me and Bobby brought out our guitars and played songs but they booed us off stage! Then Lambert got up and yelled “I’m from fucking Grambling – if you don’t like it you can kiss my fucking ass!”
Why did he do that?
He wanted everyone to know that we didn’t care if players were Black or White. We didn’t mess with that shit here. It was 1978 – not every team was up to speed on that stuff. But he made us all feel that we were one team and there wasn’t going to be any of that race shit here!