First off, can you let us know what you’ve been up to since your playing days?
I played in the XFL and Canada for a while, but by the time I got to Canada my knees were shot. I coached high school after that for four years then got into personal training. But the bottom fell out of the economy so I got into construction. Now I’m the GM of a construction staffing company here in Alabama.
How hard was that post-football adjustment for you? What made it easier?
It was difficult. Nobody every wants to just stop playing. I was doing this since second grade – now I had to figure out what was next. Coaching was an easy thing to get into for me. Construction was something I loved too because I love working with my hands. And construction is about being one big team – like football – where everyone comes together to do this one thing. So that was similar to football. I found that niche and stuck with it.
As a coach, were there any coaching lessons you took from guys you played for?
Coach Cowher – I had a lot of respect for who he was as a person. His personality stuck with me. He was extremely tough – rusty nail tough on the field. But he wasn’t that way when you met with him one-on-one. The NFL is a business but he didn’t operate like it was one. We were his guys. That was the first time I experienced that at the professional level. Coughlin in Jacksonville was all business – Jacksonville operated that way. In Pittsburgh it was more like family. I’m not sure if that started with the Rooneys and trickled down.
How did you end up in Pittsburgh?
I was one of the first ‘tweeners when I came out. Leonard Little was one of the first – he was in the same draft and even he went later than many people expected. I got a lot of calls after he was drafted from teams saying they were going to take me next. Pittsburgh called me three or four times. But the draft is crazy and I ended up not getting drafted,
Right after the draft my agent called and told me I should fly to Seattle. I went to Seattle before going to Pittsburgh. I fit their 3-4 scheme even though I played defensive end my entire life before that.
How did you learn that linebacker position?
In Seattle I was a defensive end – I was the last player cut there. I was on the plane home and was so upset at the time. My sister was going to the University of Alabama so when I got him I drove home to see her – this was before cellphones. As I was driving there my agent called my dad and told him I needed to get on a plane the next day to fly to Baltimore. So when I got to Alabama my sister told me I needed to turn around and go back and fly to Baltimore – I had to drive three-and-a-half hours again back home to fly out the next day.
Baltimore picked me up – that’s when I learned they signed me to play linebacker. I never played linebacker before in my life. I was on the practice squad as a linebacker and had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t know how to do anything. At first no-one tried to teach me anything. Not until I got into a fight with Jonathan Ogden and Orlando “Zeus” Brown.
What happened there?
I was frustrated playing a position I didn’t know. This was during the season so we weren’t supposed to go full steam. But I guess I didn’t get that memo.
Or….you kind of stowed the memo away!
Ha exactly! So I was going at it with Ogden and we got into it and started fighting. I was a boxer so I was getting the best of him when Brown stepped in to his rescue. Now, they had it all on film. In the afternoon meeting the linebackers coach showed the film and told me I should be a boxer because I was no good as a linebacker!
Well, after that Peter Boulware and Ray Lewis took me aside and showed me how to play linebacker. They stayed with me after practice and worked with me. Seven weeks later though, Baltimore needed a cornerback and Jacksonville needed a linebacker, so they swapped players.
Anyone else help mentor you?
Bryce Paup in Jacksonville was a student of the game. He showed me how to watch film from a linebacker’s perspective. Ray Lewis had a natural gift of always knowing where the ball was going. But that was instinctive – he couldn’t really teach that. Bryce showed me how to look for tells on film – hand and foot placement – how to watch for things on film of opposing players.
In Pittsburgh Levon Kirkland and I hung out – he was a freak of nature. He was 285 pounds and could run with tight ends. He was extremely smart as well and a country boy, like me.
And my head coach in Canada – he was a defensive genius. Don Matthews had a different perspective on blitzing that was really good. I later based my defense based on that and the 3-4 philosophy.
What was different about his approach?
We watched less game film and instead he created his own rules for the defense. It was basically, “If you see this, do that.” We would blitz depending on formations and matchups, not on what the offense may do. We blitzed people, not gaps. We’d overload a side and it was a different person every week that would blitz. It was no single person – at the end of the season every player had a sack. No teams would know where the blitz was coming from. It took four weeks for the team to buy-in to the defense. We lost our first four game because guys were more concerned about their own stats at first. But after we bought in we were amazing. We’d get excited for each other to make plays.
It didn’t matter what the offense did – we followed our rules.
On the Steelers, were there any good matchups you had in practice?
The running back-linebacker one-on-ones. Fuamatu Ma’afala and I had some good ones. He broke two ribs of mine once, but I still finished practice. I had beaten him a couple of times with a swim move, so the next time he chipped me with his elbow into my ribs. He didn’t want to hurt me of course.
Any funny memories you can share?
The linebacker-defensive backs rookie dinner was very funny. When the bill came out Jpeezy (Joey Porter) was not happy at all. Everyone ordered expensive food and the bill was crazy. It was a fun night but when the bill came he was like “I’m not paying this.” And he was dead serious.
People don’t realize that when I played at least, the minimum was around $85,000. But most don’t know that we’re taxed like it was entertainment, so over 50% of that came out in taxes – every state taxed us plus federal tax. It was ridiculous. You see the numbers, but fans don’t see the net.
Fortunately I had an amazing father and was around professionals who taught me well. My father was like Superman – he taught me well. I was s simple person so didn’t get crazy with spending. But if you made $100,000 it was really like $50,000 – and you had to make that last all year.
Any others?
One that I guess is a little embarrassing! In college they flew me up to Pittsburgh for a physical and a meeting. I got to the stadium and the tour guy took me to the training room and told me this was my lucky day – that the Bus was there.
Well, he was smiling and grinning when we walked in but I didn’t catch on. On the training table was the Bus – he was getting worked on. But it didn’t look like him – it was the offseason and he looked like someone’s older uncle then! I said “That’s not the Bus! No way the Bus looks like that!”
Well, it got quiet there at first. I knew then that I stuck my foot in my mouth! Then the Bus started laughing. He has this distinct face when he smiles and starts laughing. He said he got that all the time!
What happened after that ’99 season?
I got hurt in preseason. Back then you played hurt. I laugh when people ask if I ever got a concussion – I got more than one in some games. But if you didn’t play with injuries then, you would lose your job. Like I said, I broke my ribs in practice and still finished practice. I remember Joel Steed would take so many pills before every practice because he was in so much pain sometimes.
Later on I hurt my neck – Tim Lewis came to me afterwards and told me then they were cutting me. But Cowher spoke to me after and he created a whole other deal. Instead of being released he put me on IR for a few weeks so I could get a few weeks of pay first. He didn’t have to do that.
That shows how he valued you as a person. We were his guys. In college coaches treated you like you were their children. It was that same type of mentality with Cowher.
After that I rehabbed for a while then tried out for and made it on an XFL team. I wanted to see if I could hold up. I tore a pec though. I healed up and went to Canada and played, but by then my knees were just shot. I was getting them drained every week. It was just too much.
How is your health today?
I have arthritis in everything. I had surgery on both knees and shoulders and was staying active until a couple of years ago. My orthopedic doctor finally told me I needed to take it easy.
Back then you just played when you were hurt. It was a different time. You played or you were cut. That was just the nature of the game then. How it was.
But it was still a dream come true for me. My dad was a Steelers fan growing up – I have a picture of me when I was little in a Joe Greene jersey – it was down to the floor because I was so little then.
It’s a great organization even to this day. What they are doing with minority coaches and how they retain guys shows that you mean something to them. You’re not just a number there.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
