First off, how did you get into scouting?
I started in January of ’79. A BLESTO guy that coached me at Villanova later hired me as a coach at Austin Peay. When he went to BLESTO he asked me to come on and so I was there for three and a half years. I met people then and used that to help start and navigate my career from there.
It’s not all glamour – a lot of travel and roadwork. What’s been the hardest part of the business?
It’s not the travel. The hardest part is getting all the reports done and in on time. When I was at BLESTO it was all handwritten on those carbon copy sheets. You kept one sheet and sent the other two to the office and coaches. You had to write hard enough to make sure it went through all three copies and make sure not to smudge those!
Now it’s all on computers. When I started you’d go to a school like Penn State and there may have been nine or 10 players to look at. Now it’s closer to 20 with all of the added years – redshirts, transfer guys, portal guys…that’s a huge number to evaluate. And guys pop up you didn’t expect to look at. So the number of reports is easily the hardest thing. All the rest of it is fun.
How has being a former coach helped you as a scout?
Players and coaches – they understand the makeup of players. The effort it takes – and they have a good feel for their strengths and weaknesses. And as a coach, when scouts visited the school you’d talk to them and learn about what scouts look for.
It’s an ongoing learning process. Kevin ran an outstanding program in Pittsburgh and I learned a lot from that even though I have been scouting for years. You just have to be smart enough to know how to use what you learn!
Why did you come on board with Pittsburgh in 2015?
I talked to Kevin – they had a position open and I knew Kevin – we both started off at BLESTO and knew one another.
The 49ers also had an opening and asked me to come on to help them with their draft. That’s when Kevin called. I committed to Trent Baalke and San Francisco at first though. I had a good feel and respect for both Trent and Kevin – but my family was in Pennsylvania so in the end I thought it would be great to be closer to them.
Also, as a Pennsylvania guy, I watched those guys operate and they always stuck in my mind. Playing for a Rooney organization was something I wanted as well.
Both organizations were impressive – both drafted well. It just came down to being a Pennsylvania guy really.
As an experienced scout, what about Pittsburgh’s approach was different from the other teams you worked with. Was it more effective?
Without getting into specifics, they like every team have their own evaluation process and way they develop players and their draft board. When you’re inside the building you can see it. Working for BLESTO I often visited with Kevin. I don’t think they did deeper dives on character or things like that. Different teams place different levels of emphasis on character maybe.
In Pittsburgh, what were the things you looked for most in players – what mattered most?
I think we can all form an opinion easily on what a player’s skills are. But how does he fit that Steelers trait? That’s the tough thing we were looking for. Everyone can see how a guy can play. But when you bring him into the building what happens then? There’s character outside of football and inside football. Can you get a feeling on how good he wants to be? Did he develop in college – was he as good as a Sophomore as he was a Senior? You want to find the guys that have a desire to be great. That’s the hardest thing but those are the questions you have to ask.
Coaches are usually pretty honest when you ask them questions about players. They’ll tell you if they think a player is no better as a Senior than they were as a Sophomore. And if he isn’t, what makes you think he’ll get better at the NFL level?
We know what we want guys to do. But you see undrafted free agents make the Pro Bowl and first round picks flop. So it’s not a perfect science and determining character is a big reason why. What helps me is having the experience of having done this day in and day out for years. Knowing how to talk to coaches and staff to find out what you are looking for.
What would you characterize as “Steelers traits” you look for in guys?
Toughness, intelligence and heart. If you get a guy with those, they’ll find a way to make that draft pick right.
Looking at this last Steelers draft, any guys you’re personally most excited about that you pushed for? Why?
When we go to the scouting meetings, the scouts, some interns, position coaches, head coach and coordinators are all there and we all have a list of who we like and it all blends together. It’s not an opinion of one – we all decide together.
But if I had to choose one I am most excited about – and I hate to mention just one guy – but you have to go with the quarterback. I think Pickett is an outstanding player. Now I know he’s not a ruby we dug out that no one knew about. But this is the guy that can determine the direction of the franchise for maybe the next 20 years like Ben did. I really think he can be special – I was really excited they were able to draft him.
How do you factor in that the system a player played in may be very different than ones used in the NFL, but the skillsets are there. How do you factor that unknown?
Surprisingly, you can see the NFL changing more with things like the RPO. That makes it easier. I can usually look at a guy and see if he has room to develop. You have to try not to make things too complicated in what you’re looking at. If he’s doing what he’s supposed to be doing that’s important. And now the terminology is transferring over more from college to the NFL as well, so that makes it easier for players.
The Steelers have had decent success with undrafted free agents over the years – any explanation for that? I know that was the case in New Orleans as well.
It’s not an exact science. As much experience as I have I’m still never 100% confident in a player. We all have seen guys fail and usually that’s not due to physicality or ability. It’s due to the makeup of the player. When you get married can you with 100% confidence plan the next 10-to-20 years? It’s not an exact science – you hope you can develop guys and that what you think about them pans out.
How much of your time is spent talking to those around the players versus watching film/their play? And what are you asking people about?
That’s a great question. We watch film but now there’s enough film in the system that we can do that any time on our computers. When we get to the school we have time set aside with the coaches. But like any business, a coach might be angry at a player and talk them down or really like a guy and talk them up.
So you have to talk to everyone. Trainers are usually honest. The academics will give you solid opinions – they are working closely with the players and often know about their families, girlfriends, kids…
How do you get access to everyone?
It’s all scheduled through the school’s pro liaison. They set it all up – meetings with he coaches, academics, trainers…anyone you want to talk to.
Lots of times too you see other people and have off-the-cuff chats. Often people will come up and ask you who you are here to visit and you talk with them. And you eat at the cafeterias – you can learn even there how the players treat the people that work there. You want every piece of information you can get.
Were there any Steelers players you were most excited to see them get that you had experience with?
I can’t think of any one guy – maybe Minkah Fitzpatrick since I knew he could help the Steelers and watched him in college. He was a great player at position they needed help at.
So the team’s decision to move to a different direction with you – what brought on that decision. Just organizational change?
Exactly. New GM’s want different people. Their own people. I get it. I’ve been through it before and understand it. At my age it bothers me less – I just have to figure out what I want to do next. But I’m proud of the work I’ve done with the Steelers and it doesn’t affect how I feel about them at all.
Any advice for people who want to get into scouting today?
I talk to a lot of people that want to get into scouting but many don’t want to work the combine or as an intern first. They think they can step in and become a scout or GM right away!
It helps if you played or coached at some point to know the ups and downs that players go through. College kids all want to play in the NBA or NFL. Heck I do too! But in a similar way, to succeed in scouting or the NFL you have to learn what it takes first. In scouting for example, you have to learn how to maximize your time when you travel. It’s not hard to do but you need to experience it. The impact of that kind of experience is invaluable in determining how far you can go.
I will say, finally, that in over 43 years I never worked for a bad organization. It hasn’t been 43 years of work – it’s been 43 years of fun. Watching college and NFL players – that’s not work. It’s a dream job.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
