First, can you let us know what you’ve been doing since your time playing football?
Once I got out of football I coached high school football for five years then college for seven years. After I made the Hall of Fame in 2003 I decided to stop. I loved coaching for Sam Rutigliano – I did that for two years at Liberty. At Duke I was the line coach for five years – it was brutal. You are in an office most of the day and the days run from 7:30 am to 9:00 at night. With a break to work with players in between. I told my wife that I had to figure something else out.
That’s when I started working with Scott Peters – the line coach in Cleveland – and Mike Pollack – we started Tip of the Spear. We coach a new way for linemen to block. Instead of hands, head, butt, it’s hands, butt, head. It’s more effective – it’s what Cleveland did to Pittsburgh last year. And it’s safer for players. We used to be taught to lead with your head – to get your head into someone’s chest. Once the facemask was invented that’s what linemen were taught. It caused concussions and all sorts of problems and wasn’t as effective.
Did it cause you problems?
I have Stage 2 Alzeimers and scans show I have early signs of CTE. I’m ok though – I don’t drink or smoke. I control what I can. My son and I have researched this and I’m in the NFL’s ADA plan – I was accepted in. There are things we can do to be better and the NFL has made the game safer. For example not allowing head slaps. Half of the retired offensive linemen are deaf in their left ear because of right-handed defensive linemen head-slapping them.
The game is safer now. Though I don’t like the spearing rule where guys get kicked out after one hit. I don’t like that targeting rule. I think there should be a yellow card like soccer so they get one warning first.
We also drank Gatorade and Coke and smoked at halftime then. So of course players today are stronger and better.
Were there guys how influenced how you approached coaching?
I coached the old-fashioned way. I jumped rope and stretched as a player – that was how to move your feet. Coach Ringo would ask me what I was doing – guys then weren’t stretching like that. He’d limp up to me and I told him I was stretching. He’d scoff at that – “Oh come on!” I told him I didn’t want to be like him at 43 years old! I was kidding him of course. I loved Jim – we had a good relationship like that. He was like a father to me. He coached John Hannah, Jackie Slater and Ron Yary too. He knew what he was doing!
Back then we had five plays but we mastered them. I always said I’d rather fight a guy with a thousand kicks he was ok at than a guy who mastered one kick.
When I worked for Sam he asked me what equipment I wanted to coach the line with. I told him I wanted a sand pit 15×20 feet long. He asked why and I told him I was going to have my guys practice in the pit without shoes – that helps your knees and ankles learn to bend in different ways.
Were there guys in Buffalo that helped mentor you early on?
Before I got there I met the coaching staff at the Senior Bowl – they coached the North team. Before I was drafted they did the weigh-in and I was small – I weighed 243 pounds. Jim Ringo would weigh us and yell the weight to the teams’ scouts – they couldn’t see the scale. Well, when he weighed me I was still at 243, but he yelled out “255 pounds!”. Then he turned and said “I hope I see you in Buffalo kid.” I don’t think I would have been drafted in the first round if that didn’t happen.
Once I got there none of the players really helped. Ringo showed me the technique. If I wanted to learn how to drink or play cards, there were plenty of guys who could show me that! But I never drank or smoke. Me and Joe Ferguson – we were both married. I told the guys when they went out that I had steak at home, so have fun going out and getting hamburgers!
Anyone you looked up to?
Larry Little and Bob Kuechenberg were the guys I watched. I was a big Lions fan also as a kid. I loved Alex Karras – I thought he was the best player in football. When the Lions lost, I cried. For real.
I grew up in a bar in Detroit – my dad owned it. It was open from 7 am to 2:30 in the morning, seven days a week – every day except Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. My four brothers and I and my dad would get tickets from a distributor for the Thanksgiving games and go to the Lions game. When I was 10 I told my dad I was going to play in the NFL one day. He told me “When you f’in do, I’ll be there!” If my dad didn’t swear he’d have been a mute. Well, in 1976 my dad had a heart attack but walked out of the hospital in time to watch me play in the game that OJ broke the rushing record in.
My dad just told it like it was. No kidding around. It’s funny – he wouldn’t let me go to kindergarten. “What are you going to learn there that you’ll need as an adult? How to play with salt and pepper?”
My brothers used to beat the crap out of me too when we played sports. I said it in my Hall of Fame speech and I meant it – Joe Greene didn’t hit me as hard as they did. They beat me up every day.
Were you excited to play in Buffalo?
The thing is, George Perles and Woody Widenhofer coached me in college. Before the draft the Steelers called and said they were going to take me unless J.T. Thomas was there. They were the only ones that called me before the draft. Well they took Thomas – they told me they would take me in round two then and I got a call shortly after from someone telling me I was drafted. They didn’t introduce themselves and I thought it was the Steelers, so after the call I called my dad and told him the Steelers drafted me! He told everyone in the bar and they were all excited.
Then, I got a call from a reporter from Buffalo who asked what it was going to feel like blocking for OJ Simpson. I had no idea what he was talking about. He told me I was drafted by Buffalo not Pittsburgh. It was Ralph Wilson who had called me after all. So I called my dad back and let him know it was Buffalo not Pittsburgh and he just said “Who gives a shit. I’m just happy you were drafted in the first round!”
What happened after that?
I was close with Billy Joe Dupree and he was drafted right before I was. I asked him what he was getting – he told me he had an agent and got $30,000 to sign and signed a three-year deal. I told my wife as we were driving to Buffalo that I was going to ask for the same thing. She laughed and said “But Joe, you know you aren’t as good as Billie Joe!” So much for my confidence!
Well, when I got there they offered me $30,000 to and a five year contract! I didn’t hear much after $30,000 – I almost wet my pants! I told my wife and she said We’re rich!” But she thought we’d spend it all at once and asked me to go back to Buffalo to see if they would spread it out over the five years of the contract – $6,000 a year. I think they must have thought I was one of the Beverly Hillbillies or something.
Any good memories from the Steelers-Bills games?
I played in three playoff games against the Steelers. If we had instant replay then I think we would have beaten the Steelers one of those times. Joe {Ferguson} was throwing the ball but they ruled it a fumble and L.C. Greenwood ran it in for a touchdown. That changed the entire game.
Sam Rutigliano traded for me in Cleveland and announced to the press it was because he thought I played so well against Joe Greene. I was pissed he said that to the media. You don’t want to give a guy like Joe Greene an added reason to play harder and with an edge.
Lambert – the biggest compliment I ever got was when he said he hated me but wish I played for the Steelers. When I asked Brian Sipe what gave him the biggest problem in the NFL – he didn’t say cover 3 or anything like that. He said Jack Lambert. I said “Lambert? Why?” It was because no other linebacker could drop so deep into coverage so quickly and he could read quarterbacks so well.
Any other good stories about those Steelers players?
Craig Wolfley and Jim Burt – the Giants nosetackle – they used to come to my house as teenagers and asked to mow my lawn. I told them no – I had a push mower and this was how I exercised at home. I told them they could come work out with me at the stadium though. I told my wife then that these two guys could go to the NFL. You could see they wanted it.
Burt – I was so proud of him when I saw that picture of him after the Giants won the Super Bowl with his kid on his shoulders. I remember him as a 17 year-old kid!
Were you upset at being traded to the Browns? Why did that happen?
I wanted to be traded. Chuck Knox – he was like someone from Hollywood – the gold chains around his neck and everything. Nothing against him we were just opposite personalities. He would coddle the guys that didn’t work hard to try and get them to work harder and not pay attention to the guys that were working hard. It was a different mindset. I asked to be traded and they told me they tried but no one wanted me. I knew that wasn’t true because I was getting calls – illegally – from Detroit telling me they wanted me.
Well, I held out and on the last day Mr. Wilson asked me what was going on. I told him I could play for a coach I didn’t like but not one I didn’t respect. They traded me the next day.
What was it like playing for the Browns and those Steelers rivalry games?
Cleveland struggled but it all fell into place. They put in a new protection scheme and Brian Sipe ended up being the league MVP.
It was funny playing in Cleveland in those Steelers games. Half the fans were Steelers fans – you couldn’t tell who had the ball. And we’d look up and see huge fights in the stands between fans. When opposing teams got to the Dawg Pound side of the stadium they’d get hit with batteries and bottles the fans threw at them!
Any memories stand out in any of those Steelers games?
We beat Pittsburgh once in a muddy field – I don’t think they had Bradshaw – it was a terrible game. Near the end they got a safety and we just needed to squib kick it to end the game. I told the special teams coach that but he instead kicked it into the endzone. That gave the Steelers one last chance fort a Hail Mary and it almost worked. I just remember telling the coach that – you never want to give great players and teams a chance to make a play.
I respected the Steelers so much. Donnie Shell – he should have made it to the Hall of Fame a long time ago. He was an awesome player who was such a force in the run game. Blount – he could have been a defensive lineman he was so big. I looked over at him the first time I saw him and thought “Is he for real?”
Lambert was so skinny – I couldn’t figure out how he was so tough. He told himself he was and you are what you tell yourself you are I think. And L.C. Greenwood – he should be in the Hall of Fame. He caused us so many problems.
Lastly, do you follow the Bills and Browns today? Any thoughts on teams and upcoming Bills-Steelers opening day matchup in Buffalo?
I try not to – I just get mad at the NFL for how poorly they treated us with the pension plan we were given. But I love the game too much. I just want to see a Buffalo versus Cleveland championship game.
It’s cool – I didn’t know they were opening up in Buffalo versus the Steelers. I think Buffalo will win. They are a good team right now unless Ben has a huge day.
I actually recruited Ben when I coached at Duke. It’s a funny story really. I recruited him first when he was playing wide receiver in high school. When he sent me tape, it was of him playing quarterback though. He was pretty good. I called the high school coach and asked why he didn’t play quarterback earlier – who was there before him? The coach said “My son.” I told my coach at Duke that this was why football can be so frustrating.,
But I was impressed wth Ben and pushed to have Duke send him an offer. No one else had given him an offer then. I suggested we give an offer to the wide receiver on his team to to entice Ben to sign since they were good friends. But the coach didn’t want to give him an offer.
I’m really glad to see how he turned things around. He ran with a different crowd than I did when he was younger. He’s really turned it all around.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
