First, I know you’ve gone through more of your fair share of heath issues. How are you doing now?
Well, I’m 67 now. I’m doing well now. I realized that there were some things I could have done differently when I played – to take care of my body more. I played through pain a lot of times. You know, like when they ask you how many fingers they have up the then throw you back in the game.
The equipment and artificial turf – we didn’t have the rubber fields then – it was concrete. We were the testers of that stuff then and our bodies went through a lot.
And you work with the NFLPA as well?
I was president of the Georgia chapter in ’95 and ’96 yes – we had some great events in Atlanta. Since I moved to Nashville I’ve been the president and vice-president – for over 16 years now. We’ve had some great partnerships and have done some great things including scholarships for inner city kids here in Nashville.
Were you happy to have been drafted by the Bengals when it happened?
I was – I enjoyed my career. I was so happy to be picked by the Bengals and Paul Brown. He was a wonderful owner. He followed me through my high school days – I admired him as a coach and owner.
It’s funny. I first met Paul at the high school All-Star game. He came and spoke to me and said “Hey young man. You can really play. I’m going to keep my eye on you!” He asked where I was going to college and I told him Notre Dame. I thought he was playing when he said he’d keep his eye on me, but he did.
The draft wasn’t anything like it was today hoopla-wise. I was in econ class – I thought I’d go in the first three or four picks but I started hearing people chanting my name. Then our wide receiver Chris Haynes came in and told me I was drafted by the Bengals – they were on the phone for me.
I told Paul Brown I thought he was playing with me when he saw me in high school but he told me he watched me play and I was the only guy he didn’t want to have to play against in the draft!
What happened after that?
It was a great honor, but I always liked to negotiate. The CFL was big then – a lot of guys were going to play in Canada for American dollars. Forrest Gregg happened to be coaching the Toronto team and they offered me to play there. My attorney talked to me – I wanted my family to be able to see me play and back then there were only three networks that showed games. If I wanted them to see me play I’d have to play in the United States. So I signed a four-year deal with the Bengals.
My first injury happened in my second game versus Detroit and Greg Landry. I sacked him twice that game but I tore my right bicep. No one really had had that injury before so they had to find a new way to attach it. I told them if I could lift 50 pounds with that arm in nine weeks I’d be ready to play, and I did.
I came back in time to face Earl Campbell and the Oilers. I played against him in the college championship game and we won that game, but Earl was running all over the NFL. I just thought, “Not Earl again!” We lost that game, but we played competitively.
They played me as a swing lineman then – over the right, left and middle. A lot like Lawrence Taylor.
You were a terrific boxer in college – how did that help you as a football player?
Oh yeah, you do a lot of boxing on the field! It helps when you try to beat a lineman’s hands and knock them down and get underneath them. You use a lot of similar techniques. I had to learn how to bull rush, but once you go into a lineman you used some of those techniques – swim moves and uppercuts and jabs!
What do you remember about those Steelers games and how you prepared for them?
I remember the coaches yelling “Steelers week! Steelers week!” They’d holler that through the halls. We knew that if we could beat them we could win any game.
Ilkin and Courson were guys I remember facing most.
You and Courson – two of the strongest men in the NFL then.
We were, yes. We battled all the time. Then when I was in the middle of course there was a great center there in Webster.
Terry was fun to play against too. When I’d sack him I remember hearing him in his Southern accent “God damn – Browner again! Get him off me!”
They were the bullies on the block then – it was a joy to play against them.
Were there guys that got under your skin more than others?
Pittsburgh never talked junk – they never talked shit. We all respected each other. They played strong, big and powerful and we tried to do the same. But we never exchanged words – except maybe a “Good job” or “Nice move”. We all played with respect and I admired that.
What made you effective versus the Steelers?
One thing – I always watched the snap of the ball. It was something that helped me get a jump and get on the offensive linemen faster. It helped me to knock their hands down faster so I could disrupt plays in the backfield.
What did the Steelers do that you found made them most successful against you?
They really had a stronger desire to win. That’s what we needed to adapt to. Paul Brown recognized that a few years after going 4-12. That’s when he brought in Forrest Gregg. He changed our defense to a 3-4 – it hindered me but made our defense more effective. I had to take on more blockers – I had to adapt to that. Hank Bullough ran a lot of blitz schemes and showed us some different things. He had us slant right and left as lineman to be more disruptive so we didn’t have to pound down the middle of the line all the time. We moved to the 4-3 when we really needed a good pass rush.
You have a lot of family who played football at various levels, including your son and former Steeler Max Starks. What advice have you offered them over the years?
I told them to believe in yourself. Believe in your talent and speed and strength. I think my sons and brothers too – they listened to me. You need to develop a mindframe in the NFL and college. You have to believe in yourself or no one else will. I remember when I was young working out and staying late to lift extra weights and watch film and people asking me why I was doing that – that I wasn’t going anywhere. I told them this is what I wanted to do. You have to put those barriers up from people like that and believe in yourself.
Do you watch the NFL today? Any thoughts today on the game in general and the Bengals-Steelers rivalry?
I watch a little – the game and rules have changed so much. It’s still a competitive game but the calls are so petty now. Especially as a defensive lineman, it’s so different now in the things you can and can’t do. It’s a totally different game then when we played. We played tough ball. We hit in practice five days a week then battled on Sundays. Every practice was filmed too so you couldn’t take it easy. The coaches would yell at you “You have to go through it at full motion to feel the effects of the game!”
What about the rivalry today?
Oh yeah I still watch those battles. It takes me back to when I played – those great matchups. Those conference games were phenomenal going up against guys like Swann, Stallworth, Greene and LC. It was an honor playing against those guys.
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