First, can you let me know what you’ve been up to since your playing days?
After I left Pittsburgh I tried out with Minnesota. I lasted until the last cut.
I was going to law school during the offseasons. So I went to Arkansas and finished off law school and practiced law for 15 years. I became a circuit judge after that for 20 years before I retired.
In the meantime I got married and had three sons.
Was the adjustment to post-NFL life difficult?
It was difficult in that I didn’t make the team. But I was used to moving around a lot. I was kind of a nomadic guy. I played for Philadelphia, Detroit, Pittsburgh and spent two years in the Army – at three-to-four Army bases overseas.
So, I was kind of ready to settle down after that too.
How did you end up in Pittsburgh after starting off with the Eagles?
My knee got hurt in the fifth game – you could say it was torn up. I was laid up for the rest of the 1963 season. I was on an ROTC commission – it was supposed to be a six-month commitment. But the Berlin Wall crisis and Cuban missile crisis all came up, so they changed it to two years.
I came back to Philly after those two years, but by then they had changed owners and coaches and they ended up trading me to Detroit. I drove to Detroit and backed up Hand and McCord there. That was a poor season – a losing season there.
The next season Detroit had a coaching change too and Joe Schmidt traded me to Pittsburgh during the preseason.
How was the initial adjustment – get close to any of the guys there?
I made some good friends there. Andy Russell and Ben McGee. Ben was a Southern guy from Mississippi – he coached at Pine Bluff for a while so I’d see him once in a while.
They were all good guys. Most of them were married and I was single. So I’d go out mostly with the single guys. I got to meet Arnold Palmer once – that was a highlight.
Andy and I were most alike – we had similar experiences. He was from Missouri and had an ROTC commission after playing one season, like I had. He played football for the Army teams in Europe, and I played for the Fort Bragg Army team before I was shipped to Korea. I actually coached one of the four Army teams there before I came back.
What was the team like to play for then?
I was used to being a backup – I backed up McGee and Lloyd Voss and played mostly on special teams. I was never really able to crack a starting lineup after my injury in Philadelphia.
As a bachelor, I hung out with guys like Andy and Bruce Van Dyke. It was a fun group – we went out and laughed a lot. You always had to be cautious around Bill Saul – he’d get you in trouble! But he was a great guy – he just enjoyed life a lot.
What do you think was behind some of the team’s struggles then? They had good players.
In college and high school I played on winning teams. At Arkansas we went to three major bowl gams. They were good teams.
Pro ball – it wasn’t as organized then – not like it is today. Today it’s a year-round job. You train with guys around you all year long. Back then you were on your own. We didn’t make a lot and needed to work in the offseason. It wasn’t like a full-time job as it is today.
We had great players. But you need to show up and play. We had great players we just didn’t show up and play all the time.
Initially, you could have played for San Diego right? They drafted you in the AFL draft. Why did you choose the NFL?
The draft wasn’t big back then like it is now. I was drafted by San Diego. I redshirted in college so I was actually drafted by the Eagles when I was a junior. I didn’t even know that though. It was a year later before I found out.
San Diego drafted me as well – that was when Sid Gillman and Al Davis were there. When I found out I tried to play the two teams off one another a bit. I thought of myself as a negotiator – we didn’t really have agents then. But after a while Gillman told me he wasn’t going to get into a bidding war so I went to Philadelphia.
Do you watch football today?
I watch some – I’m not real enthusiastic about all of it – I still watch and enjoy it though.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
