First, what have you been doing since your time in the NFL?
I bounced around a bit on jobs. I worked at Equifax for a while then with a competitor of theirs in Harrisburg. Then I started my own business doing insurance investigations for insurance companies. I did that for 20 years before I retired.
Now, I do some work remodeling homes – a lot for my family. But I’m technically retired.
How was the post-football adjustment for you?
It was very easy. I wasn’t one of those guys where football was everything to me. I had no intention of even playing football in college until all of the sudden I got scholarship offers. I accepted Wake Forest’s.
Bill Armstrong was a guy at Wake that people thought would get drafted day one. He was heavily recruited and when scouts came to watch him they’d ask about me when they watched film.
Bill threw a big party on draft day thinking he’d get drafted early – but he didn’t get drafted until the eighth round I think. It was depressing. I went to bed that night and the next morning the trainer came in and told me I needed to get up – that I had been drafted by the Steelers. I said “What?” Then I just went back to bed. That’s how excited I was to get drafted.
Why so unexcited?
Being drafted wasn’t on my radar. I enjoyed football but it wasn’t worth the pain and anguish to me. I wasn’t rabid about it. If I was I probably would have been much better. After I was cut the next season I went to Kansas City then the Eagles. George Hill was the linebackers coach there and I remember him sitting me down and telling me I could be so much more than good at this if I wanted to be. I said “Ok, thanks.” He asked me “What is wrong with you?” I just didn’t have the passion for it. Hockey – that I have the passion for! I still play hockey for a team here.
I also found out later on I had a sports hernia. I had a constant pain in my stomach – the Steelers sent me to doctors but they never found out what the issue was then. They couldn’t figure it out. But I could tell it affected how I played. I lost a step – I could feel it.
Woody Widenhofer said when he drafted you that he felt you had some attributes that Jack Ham had – speed, same build, etc. – and could be very good as well. Were you aware he said that?
I was aware. Woody was a great coach. A great guy. Everybody loved him. Chuck Noll was too.
The day I was cut I remember walking past Woody. He was sitting in a room I never saw him in before, watching film. That was the year George Perles took over for Bud Carson as the defensive coordinator. George didn’t like me for some reason. I walked by Woody then George that day and George smiled and was nice to me. I knew I was going to get cut then.
I didn’t realize until later on that I think Woody was in the room waiting for me to go talk to him. I was just too young to realize it.
Any guys take you under their wing when you got there?
They hooked me up to sleep with Mike Webster on travel games. I was a quiet guy – I wondered why they did that to me! I remember once I fell asleep with my glasses on – Mike came over and gently removed them and put them away. I woke up with him standing over me – I laughed “Are you trying to kill me!”
Tony Dungy – he was just so smart. He studied film all the time. If the coaches had a question about what to do sometimes, they’d ask him!
Any on-field memories that stand out?
I was one of those guys that just did what I was asked to do. I know guys that remember every play – I just was never good at that. Even when I was in college. I always thought about the moment but never remembered much.
One play I remember was on a kickoff against Dallas. I was on the kick return team and my job was to block a guy I actually played against in college. He was the best blocking tight end I ever faced – what were the odds of us facing each other!
Well, I saw him running towards me and I ducked and lifted him up and planted him on the ground. I got flagged for it but I didn’t hold him like they said I did. Well, I came over to the sideline and Chuck yelled at me. I told him “I didn’t fucking hold him!” I never swore or talked to him like that. He looked at me wide-eyed and walked away.
The next day we were all in the film room. Noll told everyone to watch this – watch LaCrosse on this. It was that play. He played it twice and the film broke afterwards. I thought he was going to cut me after that. He said the film broke because he must have watched it 100 times last night. That it was a good play.
Why do you think they let you go?
I’m not sure why. I could just tell Perles didn’t like me – just the way he spoke to me. I’m sure Chuck could have stepped in but that wasn’t Chuck’s way.
Noll – he would come in to my room and play my guitar sometimes. He’d play a Mexican pipe – strumming the guitar. He was good too! He’d play for a minute or two then leave – he was a happy guy.
Another Noll story. When I got the job at Equifax they asked the Steelers for a reference. They got a glowing letter back from Chuck saying so many nice things. I think the hiring manager kept it and framed it!
Any last memories you have of your time there?
There was a kid killed that year in the preseason – a Steelers rookie. It was awful. He and David Grinaker, another Steelers rookie, were hit by a drunk driver – Randy Frisch was the player who was killed and Grinaker never played again. They were hit head on.
It was supposed to me in that car.
We were all at a club in Pittsburgh and let’s just say when they were leaving I got distracted and stayed. I remember that next morning I got the call about what had happened. I just remember thinking that I was supposed to be in that car. It gives you perspective.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
