First off, how did you get into scouting?
It started with Kevin Colbert in Detroit when I was playing. We developed a friendship and after I was done playing I started coaching high school football. He and Ron Hughes then offered me a part-time job scouting there with the Lions and I did that for three years.
Why did you come on board with Pittsburgh?
When Kevin left for Pittsburgh he brought me with him. I think he liked that I offered my honest opinions and I liked that they accepted those, right or wrong. I knew what kind of person he was after being around him for so long.
It’s not all glamour – a lot of travel and roadwork. What’s been the hardest part of the business for you?
The hardest part is being on the road traveling and staying up-to-date on reports. I’d go to Iowa in the morning to see their practice, then to Northern Iowa to see their practice in the afternoon. I’d then drive two-and–a-half hours to Ames, Iowa so I could go to Iowa State’s practice the next day. But you have to get to the hotel and checked in and get your reports done that night while they are still fresh in your mind. As you get older, all that driving – you get weary.
Who has helped you most to learn how to be a scout and what did they teach you that made a difference?
Bill Nunn – he was an old schooler. He told you like it was! He saw things I never saw – and he was big on hand and foot size. If a lineman’s feet were too small his footwork wouldn’t work with his body and that would be a problem, he’d say.
Bill Nunn formed such good relationships with the HBCU schools before anyone else did. Because of that he was able to tell them he needed film on certain players and they’d send him the film. Because they were smaller schools they usually only had one set of film, so that was Bill’s way of making sure no other teams could see the film!
Bobby Lane and Mark Gorscak too. They taught me that when you go to scout players during their practices that there was so much more than what you could see on film. For example defensive backs – it’s hard to know how good their hands are on film – they don’t get many chances usually to catch the ball. But you can see that in practice.
You can also see if what the coaches tell you about a player are true. A coach may say a guy is a leader and everyone likes them, but are they always standing alone in practice? They told me to get there early so so you can see the players habits and their demeanors. Is he a leader? Is he liked?
In practice we’d also look at the quarterbacks to see if they got flustered when a receiver drops the ball or if it’s a bad pass. Does the quarterback ridicule the receiver or does he try to make them better and lift them up. Those are important things you can’t see watching film.
How do you watch film – what is your process for evaluating guys?
A lot of people think scouting is mostly going to games, but really the majority is watching film. You can run the film back again. Often times we may be looking at a receiver but get distracted by something else or miss the blocks by linemen.
We also get wide and tight angles so we can get a more exact view of things. Did a lineman have bad footwork, or was their foot stepped on and that’s why they missed a block. That kind of thing.
You also had a role during the Steelers OTAs and camp – what were you looking for there? What are you watching for?
A few things. First and foremost, we’re looking to see if that player can help the team win a Super Bowl. Where does he fit? Does he have upside? Is he a guy that can come in for one or two games and fill in if there’s an injury before teams watch film on them and catch on to their weaknesses, or is he a guy with upside that can fill in longer?
In camp we’re also looking at the demeanor of guys to see who’s getting along with the team. Do they fit in? How does he react to the guys? Guys may make the team over other guys because he’s well-liked. They fit in and are leaders. Not all leaders have to be starters.
As an experienced scout, what about Pittsburgh’s approach was different from the other teams you’ve seen?
They just have a certain mentality they look for. I was told there are Steelers players and then there are football players. Steelers players put it all on the line and are not individuals. They are team guys. They always had that in Pittsburgh.
Joe Greene taught me that. Once four or five of us were out one night at the Windham Hotel sitting at the bar. I saw a book about the Steelers and brought it to Joe – it had old pictures of the Steelers. Me and Ron Hughes were sitting next to Joe as he looked through the book and he just slammed his hand on the table. It was a year the team wasn’t doing well, and he exclaimed “This is what fucking Steelers football is about!”
We were like, “Woah!” I told Joe he could keep the book! We talked then about Steeler pride and that mentality. The Steelers teams weren’t all first round guys – they were guys with that pride. He told us that if you can get guys like that, you can win cohesively. You don’t need a bunch of high draft choices.
That’s why I put taint on the Patriots and their seven Super Bowls. We didn’t have to cheat to win. I tried that a long time ago when I was a kid – it didn’t feel good. You can’t tell me Tom Brady doesn’t know how a football is supposed to feel.
And comparing the Steelers to Detroit – I saw Mr. Rooney more in one year than I saw Mr. Ford – the Lions owner – over my nine years in Detroit. He was always around the team and knew the players.
Those were some of the biggest differences of those Steelers teams. Of course the Lions always remained my team. When I played for Miami and guys asked me if it was weird going back to play the Lions, I told them my heart was in Detroit, but my paycheck was in Miami!
What’s the biggest mistake you see scouts make when evaluating players – what are the pitfalls?
Too much emphasis on the combine. We give guys a grade on film – maybe a seventh round grade. Then they blow up the combine and their grade shoots up to a third round grade. But the NFL isn’t track. When they had their pads on and we watched film of them they were a seventh round player. But because of workout numbers now they are third-rounders?
Many guys who don’t run as fast or are as big but are still better players than guys faster or stronger than them. That’s why you have to grade them when they’re in pads playing the game.
Looking at this last Steelers draft, your “grand finale”, any guys you’re personally most excited about that you pushed for? Why?
I’m excited about Pickens. He’s a guy that will come in and be friendly to the quarterback. He’s got that thing about him. He’s a guy who can make a big difference.
Najee – I told the coaches that if we run the ball and play good defense we can win. We have a horse that can carry the team.
Myles Jack on defense makes a big difference too. He can help take the pressure off of TJ. And Teryl Austin – he’s gotten to know the guys now and I think he can bring some new things to this defense. The defense was good but I think he’ll bring some new things there.
Did you push harder for any of the guys?
Diontae and Claypool – I scouted and liked those guys, but we tend in scouting not to say “My guy.” They are all of our guys. We cross check with each other on players – it’s a joint effort. Pittsburgh is really good at allowing us to push our opinions before it’s up to the coach and Kevin – now Omar – to make the final decisions.
Any great scouting stories you can share?
I enjoyed the people there. One story is that when we were all out together for dinner. Phil Kreidler used to call me “Chili”. Well, we were at Ruth Chris’ sitting around – there were 12 of us and Phil was next to me. All of the sudden Phil gives a grunting noise and I look at him. No one else was really looking then. I saw him turning red, choking, so I put down my utensils and hit him square in his back. The steak popped right out. Then I picked up my utensils and started eating again.
Well, then everyone started looking and the waiter ran over – I think maybe he thought I was beating him up? Phil then said “Thank you! I really was choking!” He told me I saved his life and people started laughing that after I hit him I started eating again like it was no big deal!
Any good ones of your scouting work?
Well, I went to one school to look at a player. I was talking to someone about the player and I could tell he was trying to say something to the scouts about the player, but was having trouble finding a way to say it. He finally told us that the player always had a hard-on when he played. We were like “What?”
Now, all the scouts were on the field staring at him – trying to see what the guy was talking about it. And he was right! The whole rest of the trip we talked about the “Hard-on Dude”. The guy ended up being an undrafted free agent and played for a team for a while.
I also have good memories of being with the guys. Mark Gorscak was the director of social activities for us! When he’d go to places I was one of the few guys who could hang with him. He liked to go out to a number of places every night – not just one or two.
After Art Rooney’s funeral, me, Gorscak, Dave Petett and others went out and reminisced about Art. We stayed out so late that when we left Mark had to remind me that I drove there. It was just a lot of good memories and fun times – going to the East-West Shrine Game, the combines and Super Bowls….I would never have had those experiences if I didn’t go with Kevin to Pittsburgh and I told him that when I left.
What was the reason for you not returning?
It was just a change of structure thing. I was debating at the end of last year whether or not I wanted to return. About a week before I actually asked God to help me with the decision on what to do, and a week later I guess he answered me!
I get that there was a shift there – I’m ok with Omar and told them that if they ever needed some help to let me know.
Now, I get to babysit my grandkids. I’m “Babysitter Pop-Pop”. And I love that. I can never thank the Steelers enough for the experiences I had there.
Lastly. Any advice for people who want to get into scouting today?
I’d say, especially when in college, when scouts and coaches come in, be available and accommodating. Volunteer to do personnel work at the colleges so you can develop relationships with the scouts and coaches, then see if you can get an internship with them. That’s how many of the Steelers scouts got started.
Read more by former Steelers via the book Steelers Takeaways: Player Memories Through the Decades. To order, just click on the book:
