First, can you let me know how you got started in this profession and why?

I knew I wanted to get into mental training and sports psychology since I was in high school. All my education after that was about that. I interned then with Kevin Elko, who worked on profiling some of the Steelers draft picks at the time.

What did you learn from him?

Just seeing someone do it in real life. I saw the process. He also did motivational speaking – group talks – and I was able to sit in on those as well. I learned how to understand what different teams look for – what personality characteristics were most important to them.

After that I went to grad school at UPMC – they were the medical provider for the Penguins and Steelers. They had relationships with those teams so that’s how I got involved in professional sports.

What is the process when you work with teams?

Honestly, it depends on the team. With college teams, I’ll sit down with the coach first and decide whether he wants me to work with the team as a whole or with individuals. Usually it’s a combination of the two.

With the Penguins, I was there in a consulting role. I talked to the coach first, then the team and individuals. I helped put in the structure with the player development resources younger players needed as they came in to be successful. Some wanted me to do profiling for draft picks and others to work full-time with players on the team. That’s especially prevalent in baseball.

How did it work when you worked for the Steelers?

There were two of us then. If someone was projected to be a first round type of pick, the other person would go to the combine and profile them afterwards. I worked with the players who were usually projected to go around the fourth round or past it. We both did player profiling.

We both looked for characteristics that the team valued most and red flags around those.

What characteristics did the Steelers stress and value most? How were they different than other teams?

I think many teams value the same characteristics, but some value some more than others. The Steelers really wanted players who were team-oriented over self. Who were coachable and resilient. Character was really important as well – they wanted players who had a high sense of morals and values.

How do you suss stuff like that out? Players are smart enough to not be transparent about a lot of that right?

It’s hard, especially in a combine scenario when you have limited time to talk to them. But you’re right. Often it’s more about talking to the people around them – the coaches, teammates, training staff…. It’s easy to be trained by an agent on the right things to say. One thing I did, was have players rank values that were least and most important to them. There were no bad or wrong answers, but it helped line them up to the teams’ preferred characteristics.

Are these mental “skills” viewed the same was as physical ones – i.e. do you look at players in terms of potential in these areas as a coach might for physical skills?

Teams may view those things differently. For example competitiveness. Some teams believe that however competitive you are when you are drafted is who you are – you either have it or not. Other teams believe you can develop that like a physical skill. Resiliency is the same way. I think that some players simply didn’t face as much adversity earlier, so you have to judge then whether they can become more resilient. While other players have gone through more earlier on in their lives and developed a sense of resiliency already.

How do you determine whether they have the right framework to be able to be developed in those areas?

For sure, as you said, a lot of it is about the framework they come in with. Are they optimistic or pessimistic. When they come in their confidence may be low at first, but if they are optimistic they can build that up easier. If they are a worrier and anxious a lot, then the team knows if they draft this player they need to have the right support system in place for them to develop their confidence.

It’s like developing an onboarding program?

Exactly, yes.

Are hockey and football different in terms of what you look for and what traits are needed to succeed?

I think what makes an elite athlete – a Crosby, LeBron, Tiger Woods….they all have that drive. That internal need to be the best. They’ll work hard and commit themselves to being the best. I think that characteristic is the same regardless of the sport.

Does that make you worry though post-sport, when they retire and struggle to fill that big of a void?

Yeah – you need to be thinking about that all the time. The hardest thing for them to do is to step away and now that competitive outlet is no longer there. Some are happy to be done with it – they can play with their kids, coach their sports and relax. But others look for it in other ways. Extreme golf, beating their 10-year olds in ping-pong, whatever they can find.

Teams need to pay attention to this for their players. Some have resources in place for them, but it’s something I talk about with players when it’s nearing time to stop playing, so it’s an easier transition.

What are your thoughts on the Wonderlic as a tool?

I think there isn’t a lot of weight placed on it. If it’s too low you may worry about someone being able to learn the plays, but if it’s too high some teams may worry the player is too smart for their own good and think they know better. Or, that it just eases their mind that they can learn the plays. I don’t think a lot of weight is placed on it though.

What makes you worry most when you profile a player?

I think when a player is very selfish. If they are more concerned with living the life but doesn’t love the sport. Once they sign a contract, will they become complacent? Do they have that drive for success. If you don’t have a love and passion for the sport that’s a big red flag.

Some don’t like to be in the spotlight too. They may be afraid to be the center of attention. That can make it too stressful for them.

Again – how do you get that read on guys who aren’t going to be transparent about such things? I remember reading one question you asked of players – “Would you rather play for one year and win a Super Bowl or play for 10 years and not win any.” How does that answer help your assessment, for example?

There’s no right or wrong answer there. I usually ask that at the end of the session. By that time I already have a sense of the answer and about personality. One way I do it is by asking for them to give me stories and experiences – not just yes or no answers. Experiences teach me learn more about the person than anything.

Any memories stand out most to you of your work – especially in Pittsburgh?

I learn something from everyone I have spoken to after the first time I meet them. I have a sense after that first meeting if I think they will make it or not. The work I do with them afterwards and seeing the growth over the years is what I remember most.

It’s not the stars that stand out. It’s the guys in the middle when you see them in those make-or-break moments and develop the character to succeed – that is a cool thing to see.

When I talk to players who are thinking about quitting, I don’t do it to convince them to play. I’m here as a resource – to listen. During the combine and in the scouting process, my job is to just see who they are and understand them. Not to offer solutions. Though I do remember one Steelers player during the combine that I did give a tip to.

What did you tell them?

They were anxious – you could tell in the interview. I gave them a tip – I told him to write down his worries and thoughts to help him clear his head. They ended up drafting him, and he told me afterwards that that really helped him clear his thoughts.

Someone in my position, we are generally behind the scenes. Having someone there to support players is important. Teams are required now to have mental health professionals, but not mental health performance specialists. It’s an important distinction.

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